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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Also, perhaps the fact they make you pay to get out of there on short notice, in case you forgot, has something to do with it. |
Hard to forget things that aren't true. I have never encountered an employer which makes people do this. Not saying such employers don't exist, but it is not the general rule. You are misinforming people with your clueless postings.
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| This is that place that has been described by frequent visitors to this site, some with lots of KSA experience, as a 'police state' |
And you still want to go there?
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| Being a bit anxious and having some reservations is prudent. Go ahead and be anxious and have those reservations, people. |
Sure, so long as you know at the end of the day that going to work in an unknown country where you don't know anybody is always going to entail some risk. People on this board can give you pointers about things to look out for, but at the end of the day you're on your own. If you can't deal with this, stay at home. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
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| Also, perhaps the fact they make you pay to get out of there on short notice, in case you forgot, has something to do with it. |
Hard to forget things that aren't true. I have never encountered an employer which makes people do this. Not saying such employers don't exist, but it is not the general rule. You are misinforming people with your clueless postings. |
Hey Cleo... while you were traveling there was a flurry of discussion on this and it seems that there are employers where this does come up. I believe that PMU is one of them. And some of these shady recruiters like M Trading have required large cash payments - up to 3 months salary - from teachers to get an exit visa. Since you have an MA and have always direct hired, your experiences have been mostly positive. At least your employers have normally followed the contracts.
So, this discussion is what Rigel is referring to... Another problem is that the vast majority of new posters right now don't have MAs and are all going through recruiters with iffy reputations. But, most of them are aware of the situations and are willing to take the gamble... whether for the experience... or probably mostly for the money. 
VS |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Hey Cleo... while you were traveling there was a flurry of discussion on this and it seems that there are employers where this does come up. I believe that PMU is one of them |
As I said in my previous posts, I don't deny that this goes on. But in my 7 years in the Kingdom I never heard of a single teacher who has had this unpleasant experience. In his usual ignorance, 'rigel' acts as though this is the norm. Thankfully, it is not. |
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rigel
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
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| Also, perhaps the fact they make you pay to get out of there on short notice, in case you forgot, has something to do with it. |
Hard to forget things that aren't true. I have never encountered an employer which makes people do this. Not saying such employers don't exist, but it is not the general rule. You are misinforming people with your clueless postings.
Actually, my postings are far from clueless. I'm going by the contracts that have been given to me. Some want two weeks' salary if you want to get out in a hurry for some reason. Others want two and even three months' salary. Maybe this is just what I get. Perhaps I alone get these contracts as they don't like me much.
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| This is that place that has been described by frequent visitors to this site, some with lots of KSA experience, as a 'police state' |
And you still want to go there?
Absolutely. I'm now aware of what to expect. Give me a *ahem* a GOOD contract and drop me in there.
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| Being a bit anxious and having some reservations is prudent. Go ahead and be anxious and have those reservations, people. |
Sure, so long as you know at the end of the day that going to work in an unknown country where you don't know anybody is always going to entail some risk. People on this board can give you pointers about things to look out for, but at the end of the day you're on your own. If you can't deal with this, stay at home.
Opinion noted.
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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As usual... it is the negatives that get emphasized on a board like this and grow a life of their own.
VS |
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lizziebennet
Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: Kids attending school on Chuseok |
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| eclectic wrote: |
sounds like bull.
what korean kids go to school on Thanksgiving? Not a soul in sight, not even in Seoul. |
To eclectic, I am suprised you haven't heard of this. For example it happens at CDI. CDI is a school where their teachers work all public holidays and if they want to get Luner New Year off they work through the weekend. My husband had to teach two weekends in a row (so the kids didn't have a break for 14 days) in order for the kids to have lunar new year off.
If you don't believe me go check out to Korean forums. The students are so diligent that more than half of them come to class on Chusok. In Seoul it's probably all of them as the CDI in seoul is the most famous and parents fight to get their kids in there. That is what the 'most prestigious schools in Korea do'. They are famous because they teach the kids on public holidays as well, not to mention Saturdays and 3 extra hours every vacation day on top of there normal 3 hour classes (Yes CDI works in 3 hour classes even if the kids are 10 years old they go to class for 3 hours everyday!).
My husband loves CDI because the students are so good... but it does make you think about how lucky people are who get more than 5 days vacation a year and have public holidays.
Last edited by lizziebennet on Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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eclectic
Joined: 09 Nov 2006
Posts: 1122
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Chusak, R., as I cant find any turkey to BUY over here!  |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| And some of these shady recruiters like M Trading have required large cash payments - up to 3 months salary - from teachers to get an exit visa |
The problem with the M trading case was that the guy overstayed his business visa by three or four days and so got hit by a SR10,000 fine, and of course had been denounced by M trading for absconding as otherwise they would have been responsible for the overstay.
Their attitude was still abysmal, but not quite as bad as you make out. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I do know of a case where money was asked for. A couple of teachers hitching a lift back from a party at a compound had rewarded the driver with a description of the delights of the evening. He was an off-duty police officer who dropped them off at the station.
When the consulate had arranged to spring them three days later they returned to school to be told they were going to be fired. "Fine!'" they said, "Give us the ticket; place sucks anyway." "Ah, no, you will have to pay us two months salary because you have been dismissed for unislamic conduct". "But we don't have any money." "That's your problem."
The two teachers then spent the next two months standing outside the school gate every day smoking until a science teacher did a runner and the school found it now needed one of the miscreants, who held out until the school agreed to rehire his mate as well, and pay them the last two months salary.
The guy who had done a runner had got his trip to Bahrain guaranteed by the librarian who was held responsible for two months salary (which was five months of his salary). The librarian argued that he had only guaranteed the guy for the weekend, and that it was not his fault the administration had been so incompetent they hadn't collected the passport on the Monday when he had worked the whole day at school. The school kept the money and declined to renew his contract at the end of the year. After many months of faffing around the librarian did what I had told him to do in the first place and sued the school, getting all his money back.
With regard ton the two months penalty in this case it was not totally unreasonable. The school had given out two months housing allowance at the beginning of the year, and was obviously worried about people taking the allowance and doing a runner after a week. |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Is Saudi worse than this? |
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| lizziebennet wrote: |
To be honest I have read a lot of posts here and I have yet to hear horror stories like I experienced or heard about in Korea.
I have seen people fired in their 11 month just so bosses don't have to pay severance... I know people who have signed one contract and after arriving in Korea were forced to sign a different contract with less money.
Long hours in Korea involve being forced to do summer and winter vacations which means you are sometimes working 10 hours a day (usually for a measly amount although my last Korean boss was always very generous!). Not to mention the normal 6 hours a day but calculated by the minute so you can be teaching something like 8 40min classes in a day!
My husband worked a job where you had to work all public holidays including Christmas and Korean Thanksgiving. He had 5 days of vacation in one year (and had to take it when they said it was ok!) and also had to work 2 months worth of Saturdays.
Recently a Canadian aquaintance who was in the third trimester of her pregnancy and almost miscarried/ went into early labour while teaching. Instead of insisting she rest her director phoned her to try to persuade her to come back to work the same day!
Not to mention people who have had pneumonia etc being expected to work... No such thing as taking a sick day in Korea. Your boss will come to your apartment, take you to the hospital and have you working the same day!
Another friend was run over by a taxi and badly needed a surgery on her shoulder because the pins had to be dealt with.
Her boss phoned and asked the doctor if he could rather move her badly needed operation to much later date (like 2 months later!!).
Not to mention apartment fires, wierd Korean stalkers, female teachers being raped (ok I only know of one but it happened to her twice and that is more than enough), or having near incidents where taxi drivers drove them to the middle of nowhere but they luckily escaped (another girl)... Or a guy breaking into my apartment while I was sleeping at 4am (luckily i pushed him out the door into the corridor where there were neighbors within hearing distance so he left).
Can I expect more of this or do you think Saudi may be a little better... |
You forgot something...if you don't like the situation in Korea, you go to the airport and get on an plane. (I worked in Korea, too.)
You CAN'T do that in Saudi Arabia. You must have missed the posts regarding detainment in that closed country.
When you ask about "better" regarding the situation on the ground in the KSA vs. the ROK, well, that depends on a number of factors, some subjective in nature. You're going to get a lot of opinions in response. |
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rigel
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
Oh, I do know of a case where money was asked for. A couple of teachers hitching a lift back from a party at a compound had rewarded the driver with a description of the delights of the evening. He was an off-duty police officer who dropped them off at the station.
When the consulate had arranged to spring them three days later they returned to school to be told they were going to be fired. "Fine!'" they said, "Give us the ticket; place sucks anyway." "Ah, no, you will have to pay us two months salary because you have been dismissed for unislamic conduct". "But we don't have any money." "That's your problem."
The two teachers then spent the next two months standing outside the school gate every day smoking until a science teacher did a runner and the school found it now needed one of the miscreants, who held out until the school agreed to rehire his mate as well, and pay them the last two months salary.
The guy who had done a runner had got his trip to Bahrain guaranteed by the librarian who was held responsible for two months salary (which was five months of his salary). The librarian argued that he had only guaranteed the guy for the weekend, and that it was not his fault the administration had been so incompetent they hadn't collected the passport on the Monday when he had worked the whole day at school. The school kept the money and declined to renew his contract at the end of the year. After many months of faffing around the librarian did what I had told him to do in the first place and sued the school, getting all his money back.
With regard ton the two months penalty in this case it was not totally unreasonable. The school had given out two months housing allowance at the beginning of the year, and was obviously worried about people taking the allowance and doing a runner after a week. |
Have ya heard the story about the guy who crashed his car while drunk driving and now is rotting in a jail cell there? This cost him a 4000-a-month job, btw. Maybe this is a common story though. Maybe the jails have many evil-doers who are now rotting away there.
Yes, there have been many folk who had to pay to get out of there. The Gaza sympathizer is asleep at the keyboard but still blithering. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Rigel,
"But in my 7 years in the Kingdom I never heard of a single teacher who has had this unpleasant experience."
It sounds to me like Cleo is talking about her personal experience in the Kingdom. That's not "blithering" in my book.
And I hope that when you get some personal experience in the Kingdom to post about that no one calls your posts "blithering."
Regards,
John |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Have ya heard the story about the guy who crashed his car while drunk driving and now is rotting in a jail cell there? This cost him a 4000-a-month job, btw. Maybe this is a common story though. Maybe the jails have many evil-doers who are now rotting away there. |
We're supposed to be sympathetic about drunk drivers who total their car and end up in jail without a job?
The guy's up shit street because the insurance won't pay out, but frankly, serves the idiot right. |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| We're supposed to be sympathetic about drunk drivers who total their car and end up in jail without a job? |
In the West, no.
In Saudi Arabia, yes.
Incarceration is one thing; torture is another. |
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Linda467
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 138
Location: A Secret
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