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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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 Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| What I was referring to was mainly a Prof from the West who had always taught native speakers having to get down to this level. |
Given the intellectual level of some 'Western' graduates, I don't think the Prof would have to stoop all that low. |
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Linda467
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 138
Location: A Secret
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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VS
Couldn�t agree with you more. Once I told the DOS of a British "international school" that if she was more worried about paperwork and bureaucracy (my CELTA school has to be British Council stamped) than academic level, I will not like to work with her.
On the other hand if you try to elicit the difference between the words "net" and "gross" at one of the two main business teachers working at the British Council main office in Madrid, you�ll get zip as an answer 
They cannot handle competition from bilingual or trilinguals  |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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At the IPA (for a while), we did a kind of "pre-ESP" syllabus. At the end of four sessions (equalling a year,) the students would go on to classes in their respective areas (Accounting, Sales, Marketing, etc.) taught in English by "non-native speakers."
The problem was that these teachers, rather than creating their own materials, would simply photocopy pages from university textbooks.
The students, who, in one year, had, in most cases, gone from no or very little English in OUR program, were usually completely lost.
We never could explain to the "non-native speaker" teachers why it was unrealistic to expect that that a student could go from zero English to university-level English in four sessions. |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
At the IPA (for a while), we did a kind of "pre-ESP" syllabus. At the end of four sessions (equalling a year,) the students would go on to classes in their respective areas (Accounting, Sales, Marketing, etc.) taught in English by "non-native speakers."
The problem was that these teachers, rather than creating their own materials, would simply photocopy pages from university textbooks.
The students, who, in one year, had, in most cases, gone from no or very little English in OUR program, were usually completely lost.
We never could explain to the "non-native speaker" teachers why it was unrealistic to expect that that a student could go from zero English to university-level English in four sessions. |
Faculty (I will argue till I am blue in the face that universities don't have "teachers") at )PMU were asked to teach ESP. They were given, to share, one book on "Interior Design" (not a book for teaching ESP for design, just a design book) and told to teach it for 4 weeks. This was follwed by something about business and IT, followed by maybe 6 or so weeks of "IELTS-Lite", or maybe it was "IELTS-like", for which there was no curriculum except what could be pirated or borrowed on-line.
Without proper materials, and adequate time, it really isn't possible to prepare students for content courses. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:09 am Post subject: |
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Dear desultude,
As you probably found out, there simply are (or at least, at the time, were) no very low level ESP books - at least we couldn't find any.
Result: we made our own - four levels, five subject areas (grammar, reading, writing, listening, speaking) each level.
Twenty full-length courses. YIKES! Now, THAT was fun.
Regards,
John |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Yes, while that may be true, preparing materials takes time and preparation. PMU provided neither. People were told to teach the topics with no warning or prep time.
There are loads of prep books available for IELTS, but the university would buy none, and required people to scour the internet and use materials that were protected by copyright by making large quantities of copies- in gross violation of copyright. |
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Linguist
Joined: 22 Feb 2006
Posts: 202
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| We never could explain to the "non-native speaker" teachers why it was unrealistic to expect that that a student could go from zero English to university-level English in four sessions. |
John, I beg to differ. The non-native speaker teachers you are referring to are not language teachers, but 'content' teachers from the Accounting, Sales, Marketing departments. They do not have a clue how languages are taught and how long it takes for students to acquire foreign languages. You'll find the same unrealistic beliefs among the native-speaker but non-language teachers. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Linguist wrote: |
| John, I beg to differ. The non-native speaker teachers you are referring to are not language teachers, but 'content' teachers from the Accounting, Sales, Marketing departments. They do not have a clue how languages are taught and how long it takes for students to acquire foreign languages. You'll find the same unrealistic beliefs among the native-speaker but non-language teachers. |
I do believe that is exactly what John was saying.
| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Given the intellectual level of some 'Western' graduates, I don't think the Prof would have to stoop all that low. |
Having taught accounting both in the US at a small private college (which got the kids that were unable to get into universities) and in the Gulf, I can assure you that the difference is HUGE. And this is not meant as a slap at either group.
It is not just the glaring language differences affecting the ability to even begin to read and comprehend the texts, it was the glaring cultural differences of the Gulf students. My American students all had jobs, most rented their own flats, paid their bills with their checking accounts and credit cards, and had possibly done their own taxes. In their daily lives were the basics of accounting. What do things cost, how much have I earned, what were my expenses? How will I pay the rent? When you teach first semester accounting, you refer to these things in their lives that they think they understand and work into how a business does it.
Things are slightly better now, but when I first taught accounting in the Emirates, my students had none of this. I taught it like basic ESL with realia. I brought in my credit cards and check books. I was truly dealing with a blank slate. None of them had seen either... though some had heard of them. Some of them had never used cash. (they shopped, the maid handled the money and paid)
That was where the professors brought over from the US got lost. They didn't understand either the cultural or the language blanks that they needed to fill in...
VS |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Linguist,
"John, I beg to differ"
Umm, OK - what would you like to differ about? I totally agree with everything you posted - with this small addition.
Those teachers' having a clue or not was really completely irrelevant. They wouldn't have wanted to change their procedure regardless. Why? Well because using a photocopier to produce materials is much easier than using a computer, a printer and some creativity.
Regards,
John |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| Having taught accounting both in the US at a small private college (which got the kids that were unable to get into universities) and in the Gulf, I can assure you that the difference is HUGE. And this is not meant as a slap at either group. |
Well, Teta VS, if the Emirati students were taught Accounting or Sales in their own native language (Arabic), I think the scenario will be different.
BTW, why they teach them all these speciality subjects in English? Why not use the Arabic language?
I was taught Mathematics in Arabic, and now I am teaching it in English, the most important thing is the mental understanding and not the language understanding for speciality subjects.
Well, I know that Teta VS will disagree with me! |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Dear 007,
I believe the students were/are being taught those ESP courses in English because that's the language they will mainly use once they actually begin their work career in whatever field they're in.
At least that was the reasoning/justification given at the IPA.
Regards,
John |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| 007 wrote: |
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| Having taught accounting both in the US at a small private college (which got the kids that were unable to get into universities) and in the Gulf, I can assure you that the difference is HUGE. And this is not meant as a slap at either group. |
Well, Teta VS, if the Emirati students were taught Accounting or Sales in their own native language (Arabic), I think the scenario will be different.
BTW, why they teach them all these speciality subjects in English? Why not use the Arabic language?
I was taught Mathematics in Arabic, and now I am teaching it in English, the most important thing is the mental understanding and not the language understanding for speciality subjects.
Well, I know that Teta VS will disagree with me! |
It seems to me that teaching content languages in English makes sense in terms of training people working in an international environment (and in Saudi Arabia, unless you are selling dates or camels, you will be working in an international environment). I taught English at the university level in Korea, and it was rather useless, to tell the truth, as they only encountered English in the classroom and maybe online. English Literature classes were often delivered in Hangul.
As bad as my students could be in Saudi Arabia, I never was once in a situation where I couldn't find an English speaker. Granted, I was in the Eastern Province, where there is much more exposure to English. In Korea there were few English speakers in Banks or other businesses. There was usually a designated English speaker to deal with the waygooks. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems to me that teaching content languages in English makes sense in terms of training people working in an international environment |
There's no doubt that Saudis do need to learn English, but there is a lot of doubt as to whether having it as a medium of instruction in 3rd level colleges is the best way to go about it. As someone who studied languages as part of her university degree, I know just how very difficult it is to be sufficiently proficient in a language so as to be able to read and write academic texts in it. It is, to use a cliche, a tall order. And we are asking this of students whose first language is radically different from English, and whose training in English at school has likely been rather poor.
Having English medium 3rd level colleges doesn't seem the best way to produce a workforce fluent in English. If you take the example of those European countries where even non-graduates have an excellent command of English - for example Holland or the Scandinavian countries - you'll see that they rarely use English as a medium of education at any level. Obviously, we're not comparing like with like in the sense that these nations all speak European languages very closely related to English, and there are no 'cultural issues' with introducing English at an early stage (as there might be in KSA) and so on. However, it does show that it may very well be better to start equiping students with the skills (linguistic and educational) which they need at an early age, rather than expecting them to play catch up in the speace of 3 or 4 years. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Cleo,
"However, it does show that it may very well be better to start equiping students with the skills (linguistic and educational) which they need at an early age, rather than expecting them to play catch up in the speace of 3 or 4 years."
Amen - plus the fact that language acquisition is so much easier at a young age.
Regards,
John |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| 007 wrote: |
Well, Teta VS, if the Emirati students were taught Accounting or Sales in their own native language (Arabic), I think the scenario will be different.
BTW, why they teach them all these speciality subjects in English? Why not use the Arabic language?
I was taught Mathematics in Arabic, and now I am teaching it in English, the most important thing is the mental understanding and not the language understanding for speciality subjects.
Well, I know that Teta VS will disagree with me! |
Wrong again secret agent man... if you had followed my posts over the years, I have been one of those who felt that the students of the Gulf would have been better served to study in their first language. But, it was their governments who disagee.
But... one large point. When I first taught accounting in the Gulf, I had one very diligent student who went home after the first couple classes and translated all of the terms introduced in each chapter using a business English/Arabic dictionary. To reward her hard work, I gave her up to 15 minutes at the beginning of the class to share what she had found with the rest of the class. After we had done this a couple times, I asked the class what they had learned. One of my brighter sparks with the best sense of humor said, "I have learned one thing Miss. I don't understand this in either language." Which is just what I wanted them to learn. They needed to learn the concepts and whether it is called a debit/credit in English or Arabic, they have to learn what it means and how to use it. I didn't want them to waste any time translating, but to learn the theory and the process. They can always add the Arabic terminology to their skills.
VS |
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