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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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 Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| maybe I'm naive about who gets into this but i assume it's people with a background in at least writing, if not full on grammatical learning. Point being, if someone can't at least write, I'd assume they wouldn't presume to be an English teacher. |
I guess some people know themselves but slightly. Yes, I get a lot of apps from people who couldn't meet the grade in this way.
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| I get the part about wanting people to pass, but i'd assume if someone wasnt native english, or really proficient, they wouldnt try to teach english. |
Though we gladly accept non-natives on our course (and had a Dutch guy do well on the last course), the standard for language use is clear. "Participants must have a level of English sufficient to be a credible teacher of very advanced level students." Many people know their language level only slightly, or want the cert for other reasons...yesterday I had an interview with an applicant who, simply put, could not meet that standard. (CEF B1 maybe? Communicative, but not a lot of nuance or accuracy.) She can't receive the cert, so...is it fair to take her money?
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| as far as interview skills, say the guy said the meeting babes/ age of conesent thing but was perfectly qualified, even highly qualified, is it fair to fail him? If he does the job, is it your right, legally or ethically vis-a-vis the profession, to judge what he does with his free time? |
THat's the point. I DIDN'T fail him- I refused him entry on the course. On this course, people really teach real students. As the director of the school where those students come, I have a responsibility to protect them from sexual predators. If he did it in his free time only, I wouldn't know about it. He was talking about using teaching as a way to do it. Not appropriate.
Best,
Justin
PS-
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difference with the guys is they dont still think they're hot/ attractive/sexy... |
Sadly, not my experience. A few weeks ago I was at the beach. FAR too many guys in speedos who wouldn't have been if they had a mirror and some sense. |
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Hot2GlobeTrot
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Interview for the privilege to take CELTA |
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| SydGirl2 wrote: |
| From what I have heard about salaries in Europe, you may not be able to afford to travel much. Also do you have an EU passport? If not, then you will probably be limited to working in Eastern Europe. |
I have an EU passport, and it's not to travel every month, it's to stay in Paris for 9 motnhs, then Moscow for 9 months, then Abud Dhabi or somewhere like that for a year, then Cairo for a year and a half....i dont assume i'll make so much that i can live a life of leisure in 4* hotels... |
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Hot2GlobeTrot
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
as far as interview skills, say the guy said the meeting babes/ age of conesent thing but was perfectly qualified, even highly qualified, is it fair to fail him? If he does the job, is it your right, legally or ethically vis-a-vis the profession, to judge what he does with his free time?
I would not put a stamp of approval on a guy who has openly expressed interest in young girls to the degree that he feels impelled to ask questions about his chances in an interview for a cert course (over a beer in some informal situation is a different thing)- how could I send such a man out into the world knowing that he would feel free to hit on his students? It would be unethical. I've known a few cases where teachers really got in legal trouble due to inappropriate relationships with students, and this kind of attitude reflects very poorly on a school that hires such a guy.
Yeah, what they do outside of work, when it's an extreme or illegal activity, does affect whether a good cert course is going to put a stamp of approval on someone. |
maybe i'll invent a sarcasm smiley....obviously it's an extreme case, i'm trying to get at what should be the proper motivation
as an aside, do you mean someone got fired for inappropriate relations with an adult or an underage? If i'm teaching English in Paris to 19 year olds, it's off limits? |
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Hot2GlobeTrot
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| santi84 wrote: |
Actually, in the real world, what an employee/applicant does in their spare time does matter. Perhaps Wal-Mart or even an accounting firm does not care, but professions such as teaching, health, or law enforcement require a different code of conduct outside of the workplace. People may not like that, but it is the reality of the situation and life is certainly not fair. Is it legal? Usually, depending on the location. Ethical? Any parent or person who has had to dea with someone's unethical workplace conduct will say "you bet!".
Besides, anyone who mentions girls/babes/age of consent during an interview is a fool no matter what their qualifications. Education can't make up for a lack of common sense on how to conduct yourself in a professional environment. |
but the CELTA admin isnt an employer...almost like saying a harvard grad prof working at Yale who behaves badly reflects poorly upon Harvard.
obviously the guy was a tool for asking what the age of consent is, even if he may have had legitimate concerns about it. (20 year old with a 17 yo in the US for example, where it's legal in Canada)
but again, i ask what the proper motivation should be in the eyes of a CELTA interviewer... |
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Hot2GlobeTrot
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
| Quote: |
| maybe I'm naive about who gets into this but i assume it's people with a background in at least writing, if not full on grammatical learning. Point being, if someone can't at least write, I'd assume they wouldn't presume to be an English teacher. |
I guess some people know themselves but slightly. Yes, I get a lot of apps from people who couldn't meet the grade in this way.
| Quote: |
| I get the part about wanting people to pass, but i'd assume if someone wasnt native english, or really proficient, they wouldnt try to teach english. |
Though we gladly accept non-natives on our course (and had a Dutch guy do well on the last course), the standard for language use is clear. "Participants must have a level of English sufficient to be a credible teacher of very advanced level students." Many people know their language level only slightly, or want the cert for other reasons...yesterday I had an interview with an applicant who, simply put, could not meet that standard. (CEF B1 maybe? Communicative, but not a lot of nuance or accuracy.) She can't receive the cert, so...is it fair to take her money?
| Quote: |
| as far as interview skills, say the guy said the meeting babes/ age of conesent thing but was perfectly qualified, even highly qualified, is it fair to fail him? If he does the job, is it your right, legally or ethically vis-a-vis the profession, to judge what he does with his free time? |
THat's the point. I DIDN'T fail him- I refused him entry on the course. On this course, people really teach real students. As the director of the school where those students come, I have a responsibility to protect them from sexual predators. If he did it in his free time only, I wouldn't know about it. He was talking about using teaching as a way to do it. Not appropriate.
Best,
Justin
PS-
| Quote: |
difference with the guys is they dont still think they're hot/ attractive/sexy... |
Sadly, not my experience. A few weeks ago I was at the beach. FAR too many guys in speedos who wouldn't have been if they had a mirror and some sense. |
okay, i'll concede on someone being incapable on a language level. What i'm really getting at is whether I would have anything to worry about, since I'm native english with a degree based on high levels of essay writing
isnt the CELTA course separate from jobs? Granted, i'm basing this on the one in Paris i'm looking at....
now, obviously, if i'm teaching 8 year olds, i'm not trying to pick them up. But if i'm teaching a business class in Paris and there's some ladies in there, if i'm asked by an interviewer, is it a death blow for my chances if i said i'd pursue it or allow it to happen? Is that considered unethical in the ESL profession? (i'll be in the Sorbonne at the same time, so i wont be pressed for meeting women, just asking)
ps. the whole guy vs girl thing is based on a chris rock bit i saw....it's a bit vile, but look it up, it's quite funny |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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I see what you're saying, and CELTA, or and other training course, is separate from teaching...but it's a qualification in teaching. And teaching has certan responsibilities attached.
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| But if i'm teaching a business class in Paris and there's some ladies in there, if i'm asked by an interviewer, is it a death blow for my chances if i said i'd pursue it or allow it to happen? |
Can't think why it would ever come up in an interview. Certainly wouldn't have to if I were interviewing you, cause it's not something it would occur to me to ask. But if YOU asked about opportunities to date students...yeah, it would make me think that maybe your attitude to teaching wasn't professional enough. Might make me wonder if you were some sort of a pervert, to tell you the truth. Not because, under some circumstances, you might consider dating a student. I disagree with this, but it's not really uncommon, not even problematic in the case you describe; normal enough. But because you felt the need to ask about it in an academic interview. Sounds sort of...needy? Creepy?
And then, if you asked about age of consent...we're past creepy. Not someone I can really help qualify to teach.
To be clear, though- I'm not saying that the primary role of interviews is to weed out the pervs. Employers, and frequently visa/immigration authorities are responsible for that, through reference checking and, more and more frequently, criminal background checking.
I just put forward some examples of people I wouldn't(didn't) accept on a TESOL course, on the grounds that I felt they would compromise the quality of the course. If I, as your trainer, am spending my time trying to keep one of your peers off the underage students, how will that effect your experience on a TESOL course? No matter what you think of his character, anyone who asks if they can date the practice teaching students is going to be an unnecessary distraction. At the very best.
Best,
Justin
PS- found the vid.  |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| JUstin's point is not that EFL teachers shouldn't date adult students, but that the doesn't want the hassle occurring on the CELTA course with the practice students. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
| JUstin's point is not that EFL teachers shouldn't date adult students, but that the doesn't want the hassle occurring on the CELTA course with the practice students. |
...and that's a very good point. I think Justin's perspective on this matter is very sound.
Regards,
fat_chris |
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Mr. P
Joined: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Stephen Jones is full of hot air.
Any ESL "teacher" who dates students of any age needs social help.
Mr. P |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I think its unethical to date students of any age. Refrain until the teaching is over. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Dear spiral78,
Amen - not only is it unethical, it's just asking for trouble.
Regards,
John |
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Justin Trullinger
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3110
Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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There are so many non-students out there to date, and the potential complications... I think I agree with the last few posters here. Even AFTER teaching is over.
BUt StephenJones is right, in fact. My point HERE isn't about dating. It's about the reason for an interview before a teacher training course. This interview is there to keep people off the course who would get in the way of others' learning, whether by dating, failing to communicate in English, or whatever.
Best,
Justin |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Any ESL "teacher" who dates students of any age needs social help. |
Oh dear, one of those saddos who likes to bolster his fragile ego by making up petty moral restrictions on the rest.
There are gazillions of EFL teachers who have married their students. What do you want to do? Forcibly divorce them all and send their kids into care? What's the difference between a 23 year-old EFL teacher dating a 22 year-old secretary, and a 23 year-old computer programmer in her company doing the same?
And it's being going along for yonks. My father taught philosophy at WEA (adult education) classes. My mother was one of his students. When asked by her best friend about her sudden interest in philosophy, my mother replied "It's not the philosophy stupid, it's the teacher."
The Methodist Minister at the local church when I was a teenager was a religous studies teacher at a Girls Grammar School. As soon as the school year ended he married the Head Girl.
People date and marry people they meet, and the most common place to meet people is at work. And the people EFL teachers meet at work are other young adults who are studying.
About the only time where there would be a problem is when the teacher is responsible for giving grades that will be valid externally, as in a university. But that is not the normal case in EFL teaching, and universities and other tertiary institutions have rules in place to deal with those kind of conflicts of interest. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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On the more normal level
I know people who started dating after the course ended, and it's all good. Obviously they were single adults and entirely eligible to date each other legally and ethically.
But starting a personal relationship while a course is ongoing does weird stuff to classroom dynamics, no matter how discrete one might try to be (or not!).
On another level
I also know of teachers who have gotten into serious trouble with girls, their parents, schools, and even the law. Your average private language school register doesn't clearly indicate that she's 14, and she looks at least 18 (which she told you she is)....and she acts 25.....how would you know it was illegal?????????? But it totally was 
I remember at least two cases of teachers from private language schools in jail in Prague over this... |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Stephen,
"About the only time where there would be a problem is when the teacher is responsible for giving grades that will be valid externally, as in a university."
OK, but I believe in "internal" ethics, as well. Even if the grades aren't "valid externally," dating a student you're currently teaching raises (to me) a "conflict of interest" and undue influence.
Regards,
John |
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