Job Discussion Forums

johnslat · Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject:

Dear Kalima Shahada,

"If those same employers suddenly offered proper work visas, do you honesly think their policies would change?"

And if I had a vast fortune, do you think I'd be driving a ten year old car?

Those "same employers" are not going to "suddenly" offer legitimate work visas just because of who they are - disreputable, untrustworthy, and unscrupulous.

Have you read any of the previous posts?

"To all of you who intend to come to work for Alfaisal: do not arrive here on temp work visa! Alfaisal just refused to change those into proper work visas for 23 teachers and extend it to a single entry which effectively means that you cannot leave the country at all."

"I second the last post. I am also not disgruntled. I am tired of being lied to and tricked. I was given clearance to book my tickets for a break in February. After they were already booked and paid for i was told i can not leave the country. I was leaving for MY marriage ceremony."

"Who exactly is "unable to leave the Kingdom, even to go to Bahrain?" How are they being kept against their will on temporary work visas or business visas?"

Or perhaps you think that those posters are not telling the truth?

Regards,
John

Kalima Shahada · Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:05 pm Post subject:

johnslat · Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject:

Dear Kalima Shahada,

"What exactly is your point and how does it relate to this thread?"

It was contained in the next sentence, the one you quoted, and the point, quite simply, was that your "if conditional" was "unreal." Those same employers are not going to "suddenly" - or slowly - offer "proper work visas," any more than I'm going to suddenly - or slowly - acquire a vast fortune.

"You worked in Saudi a long time. John, you can't tell me that you never heard of a 'good' employer who hired people on 'illegal' visas?!"

Nope, never did. But then, perhaps I was hanging around with the wrong crowd. These "illegal visas" (not sure why we're putting the phrase in quotes since they it IS illegal to work and/or reside in Saudi while holding one) have, as far as I can tell, sprung up only fairly recently. I knew teachers who worked in many other places (including "language schools" such as International House), but they all had legal work visas during my time there.

"Fine, I don't disagree with you that they are most likely "disreputable, untrustworthy, and unscrupulous," but just remember that they are advertisers on THIS site and what you just said should raise quite a few eyebrows with the powers that be here."

Neither Dave nor the Mods will "raise an eyebrow" as long as I - or anyone else - doesn't include SPECIFIC information, such as individuals' names, e-mail address, etc.

For whatever reason the employer is using these "illegal visas," that would be a BIG red flag to me. In the late summer and fall, there were a number of posts from people who'd been hired and were going to be given an "illegal visa." At the time, some of us warned against accepting a job under those conditions. And now, we've begun to hear a few of the horror stories from some teachers who did accept such jobs.

Regards,
John

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

As someone who first came to work in KSA in 1970, I can confirm what John says about this. It is a recent phenomenon. Let us hope it is short-lived.

Some newish posters seem determined NOT to take advice from oldtimers who post here.

They have been warned about the dangers !

I am quite happy to reply to pm's from anyone inquiring about working in KSA and the problems associated with it. I cannot guarantee that inquirers will get the answers they want. I am not a people-pleaser, but tell it the way it is.

lioness777 · Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 6 Location: Wonderland

To Khalima Shahada,

To answer your question "Why don't you just leave?" I will, you can bet on that! As soon as I get my passport back. Hopefully, the dreadful snow in Europe will blow over by then.

Kalima Shahada · Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:01 am Post subject:

Cleopatra · Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:19 pm Post subject:

johnslat · Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:49 pm Post subject:

Ah, the (in my experience) urban legend of the "helpful embassy" springs up again.

May I suggest a reading of Waugh's "Black Mischief?"

"The British embassy is not spared; Sir Samson Courtenay is a diplomat who does not let business interfere with his knitting and begrudges hospitality to his visiting countrymen"

I've already detailed how the American Foreign Service let me and others down (deserting the consulate in Shiraz, Iran shortly before the "Islamic Revolution without notifying any other Americans living there; refusing to issue gas masks during the 1991 Gulf War - although every other embassy had issued them - until enough Americans had written their representatives in Congress to complain.)

God help you if you depend on your embassy for help.

Regards,
John

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

I cannot imagine how anyone who has travelled anywhere would think that their Embassy will help them in any way. And that goes for all nationalities.

Cleopatra points out that it is customary for ALL employers in KSA to hold your passport. That is a fact.

If you do not like that, I suggest that you stay away from KSA.

Cleopatra · Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject:

johnslat · Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:44 pm Post subject:

Dear Cleopatra,

Well, they left in early January, and the Shah didn't exit Iran until mid-January (the 16th). So, you really couldn't say the "Revolutionary Guards" were on their doorstep.

Regards,
John

Cleopatra · Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:50 pm Post subject:

But I can still say that American 'reading' of events in Iran was extraordinarily inept, a situation which has not changed in the decades since then.

veiledsentiments · Joined: 20 Feb 2003 Posts: 17644 Location: USA

I certainly wouldn't disagree with that analysis... though all governments seem to be extraordinarily inept if one looks too closely, but most of them don't have such an over-sized, over-armed military. Laughing

While Kalima may have been lucky to get help from the US embassy, my quibble is for her to pass that along as the normal situation. Those of us with years of direct experience and years of hearing the tales of our fellow professionals know how unique her situation was.

The fact is that the vast majority (98.273%) of Americans will NOT receive any assistance if they don't want their employer to hold their passports.

VS

johnslat · Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:11 pm Post subject:

Dear Cleopatra,

To be fair, it was mainly Kissinger (under Nixon), Vance (under Carter), and the "back-room boys" at the State Department in Washington, far from the realities on the ground who were completely clueless.

Ambassador Sullivan had a much better idea of what was really going on and what was likely to happen. But, of course, no one back in in D.C. paid any attention to him (Sullivan also strongly urged that the exiled Shah not be allowed to enter the US, and, this time, despite their extreme reluctance to follow that advice, Brzezinski and Vance finally paid heed.)

Here's a very good report on all the screw-ups:

"For example, a May 1976 INR report acknowledged the risks, but concluded that the Shah �has a good chance to be able to lead Iran for many more years.�

http://www12.georgetown.edu/sfs/isd/Iran_WG_Report.pdf

Regards,
John

Cleopatra · Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject:

The CIA specifically reported that the Pahlavi regime was not in danger. Carter didn't much want to know one way or the other.

Anyway, my point still stands - successive US administrations, including the current one, have shown themselves utterly hopeless at reading events in Iran.