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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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 Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Learning that some things are taboo in other cultures - and in our own - is part of learning a foreign language.
When the student asks about your salary, ask him about his sister. |
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trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Oh Scot... you old troublemaker... 
...and I guess you also want them to learn about the deportation process?
VS |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't blame him, Teta VS! Uncle Scott is under the influence of Qat! |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| No I am under the influence of the fresh desert air of Northern Saudi Arabia. Better than any Qat or Amphetamines ! |
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littleoldlady
Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 286
Location: knitting heaven
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Well chewing Qat is safer than having explosives in your underpants eh guys. Maybe your Calvin Kleins should be renamed THUNDERPANTS
Now I've just broken my NY Resolution.:- to be grown up and sensible. Like VS.  |
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7atetan
Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 93
Location: Not in the Mediterranean Sea
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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The presentation is quite interesting but it is an example of cuntural pandering, rather than cultural exchange or even cultural sensitivity. Take this:
"Alhamdu lillah means �Thanks be to God� � say this when you have had enough to eat."
Why should I? I don't consider any supernatural being to be in any way connected to my digestive processes. Why shouldn't I just say "That was excellent but I've had quite enough, thank you"??
or
"Muslims will often address Western non-Muslims about religion, which might lead to asking them to convert.
"� A good answer is that you appreciate all the information they have given you, and respect Islam, but you cannot consider conversion because it would offend your family."
What bull. I don't WANT to convert because I don't BLIEVE what you are telling me to be true and I am quite happy with the (lack of) religion I have, thank you very much.
If we are coming somewhere on a visit, want to forge business or professional relationships, I perfectly understand why we should learn about the all-encompassing term "culture" of the "other." But to change the way we talk, act and even think, and to change our values, so as to basically conform to some model Islamic societal norms (to which even many of them do not adhere) is beyond preposterous.
Know them, respect them - insofar as their practices do not conflict with certain norms of my society - and even foster camaraderie by chaniging a few of my ways for their amusement/approval? Yes. But become them, even just in front of them? I don't think so. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Dear 7atetan,
May I ask how long you've been in Saudi?
Cultural pandering? Wow - and here I thought it was just being polite.
Thank goodness you came along to enlighten me.
Regards,
John |
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7atetan
Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 93
Location: Not in the Mediterranean Sea
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
May I ask how long you've been in Saudi?
Cultural pandering? Wow - and here I thought it was just being polite.
Thank goodness you came along to enlighten me. |
Two years.
Well, one could be extra polite and convert to Islam, according to that logic! Let me ask you: If you had a Saudi coming to your house in the US for dinner, would you expect him to drink wine with his dinner? I'll guess and say no. So, why should we accept their culture in Saudi Arabia AND, to a large extent, in our own countries, but not expect them to reciprocate? "Sorry," but my culture is not inferior to and no less "valid" than theirs, and if I respect theirs, will expect them to respect mine. I will not praise their god after a mean, and I don't expect them to praise mine. Is that unreasonable?
And there is no need for sarcasm. I was just expressing my point of view. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Dear 7atetan,
It would be "extra polite" to convert to Islam? Umm, I don't think so. That's an absurd definition, even of "extra polite."
Allah means God. Oh my God, I say "God Bless You" when people sneeze.
Lord knows how many people of other faiths (or of none) that I've thoughtlessly offended.
Considering that on my first night in Saudi, I was offered whiskey by the then Saudi director of the Jeddah Branch of the IPA, I suppose I would have some wine available - and on view - just in case.
As you may know, a fair number of Saudis do haram things, including drinking, and that, for some, is especially true when they are not in their native land.
Your POV is certainly your right and your business, but then, I don't especially enjoy being called a "cultural panderer" either. Hence, the sarcasm.
So, all the best with your aggressive ethnocentrism. If it works for you, then that's a big HAMDULLAH.
Regards,
John |
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7atetan
Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 93
Location: Not in the Mediterranean Sea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
| So, all the best with your aggressive ethnocentrism. |
Straw man.
Have a nice day. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Dear 7atetan,
Straw man? No, I don't think I'm arguing or trying to refute your position. WHy would "aggressive ethnocentrism" be a "straw man" any more than "cultural pandering?"
As I posted (without sarcasm) if it works for you, that's great.
I'll admit that I do find it difficult to see how your position might not cause you some problems in the Kingdom. But if you've been there two years already and haven't changed your attitude, I guess it's working out OK.
All the best,
John |
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lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| 7atetan wrote: |
| I don't consider any supernatural being to be in any way connected to my digestive processes. |
Try spicier food.
| 7atetan wrote: |
| I am quite happy with the (lack of) religion I have, thank you very much. |
Try a foxhole.
| 7atetan wrote: |
| I perfectly understand why we should learn about the all-encompassing term "culture" of the "other." |
Perfect understanding is an oxymoron.
| 7atetan wrote: |
| ...beyond preposterous. |
Metapreposterous?
| 7atetan wrote: |
| - insofar as their practices do not conflict with certain norms of my society |
Which will vary with an individual's perception and sensibility.
| 7atetan wrote: |
| - and even foster camaraderie by chaniging a few of my ways for their amusement/approval? Yes. |
Phew. Actual tact and integrity.
| 7atetan wrote: |
| But become them, even just in front of them? I don't think so. |
You've exaggerated, vaguely, a countering argument to substantiate your own.
The conventional wisdom of this board is to avoid conflict by means of convenient excuses as newbies balance the laudable quality of being genuine in their responses.
Discussing gods is for fools and people on their first date. |
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7atetan
Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 93
Location: Not in the Mediterranean Sea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| lazycomputerkids wrote: |
| 7atetan wrote: |
| I don't consider any supernatural being to be in any way connected to my digestive processes. |
Try spicier food.[...] |
Other than flaming me, you really have no point, do you.
Have a nice day. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Hold it! Hold it!
You mean our posts here are actually supposed to have points?
Yikes - Mother of Mercy! Is this the end of the Saudi Forum?
Regards,
John |
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