Job Discussion Forums

[blateson]

[inky]

The topic here is 'Female English Teachers in Vietnam.' No reference to the love-life angst of the foolish western men who think they can hook up with a local female based on a few friendly encounters with bar girls, and then when it goes sour they come on here and whine about it. Stick to the topic, which much of what has been written here has nothing to do with.

[mark_in_saigon]

yeah, right there, where he wants to reference what subject he is speaking to. The ideas flow, it is like conversation, even between friends. We are friends, aren't we? On behalf of the entire world, I apologize for whatever has caused some of us to be so embittered. As long as we are courteous, honest, and are not promoting illegal activities, and as long as it is relevant to living and working in VN as a teacher, it would seem that nice people could continue to have a conversation, and those of us who do not consider themselves to be among friends could go somewhere where they did. Goodnight my friends, I am going to go back out into the lovely evening, and hope I don't get run over in the process. If I do, I died happy.

[lucreziaborgia]

I found working in VN to be the same as anywhere else - except for some understandable differences in management and administrative processes. Many of these problems are caused through misunderstandings due to communication and the others through a difference in cutlural protocols. These problems can cause frustration and need patience on our behalf to resolve. Becoming irritated will not solve anything as the VNmese need to save face at all cost. VN is an excellent place to master the art of forbearance and inscutability. VN is full of contradictions that we will never understand. Friendships with VNmese tend to be on their terms
and not necessarily based on affection. It is best to accept offers of friendship for what they are and enjoy them without expecting anything more. We are perceived as itinerant hence a large investment of time is not usually forthcoming. However, you can expect to retain some friendships that last after you have left VN.
The VNmese found it alarming that I was a single woman living in VN without my children and grandchildren and could not understand that I did not miss them. Many believe that we are working in VN because it is a cheaper alternative to Western countries; few believe that some of us actually prefer it.

[Green Acres]

Without ramming up against our champion bittered responder who can't stand the bitterness of the jaded masses, I would like to add my 2 cents here (and BTW, where is the "cent" key on the typewriter?).

Do we live in such a stoic universe that males cannot understand females and vice-versa? Are we not in a profession that seeks to understand environments in order to improve them? Are we not men? We are Devo! D-E-V-O!

This is an excellent discussion, not only for human beings who are thinking of working in vietnam, but also for the consideration of the social and professional relationships that exist here. Certainly there is room for another opinion -- jaded, faded, right or wrong?!? I agree with Mark, in that, right here, is an excellent place to be you and state your mind. What a nice system we got!! It's good that everyone is different -- yet we share the same forum and information. As well, even if I should come out to be judgemental, superficial, ridiculous, and/or downright wrong -- there is still something to be gained from each small reflection.

I also agree with Mark when he says that he would not come here if he were a woman. No matter what kind of woman I might be, I wouldn't come here as a teacher. The main reason is that Vietnam is not a location for someone who is interested in furthering their profession or accumulating wealth. Most people come to Vietnam to experience a different culture or to learn more about the world, and not for professional reasons. Therefore, and what one finds is that people come here to work for the quality of life more than any other reason. As is the case throughout Asia, the quality of life is generally better for men than it is for women.

Without generalizing too much, (and how can one avoid doing so given the topic?), the world is what one makes it. There are big differences in the world each of us lives in based on this simple fact, whether a woman or a man (or vice-versa). The only women who stay in Vietnam over a period of time fit into only a few categories -- married/partnered to another employed expat, or large. There are women who come here from western countries who usually leave within a year's time, and these are the reasons.

First, whether Hanoi, hcmc, or any other place, it's a small pond. The scene becomes predictable and this can be a bit boring. A single scene is only as good as it's client base, and since this base is relatively small, then one is always wishing they had done something else in another part of the world. Even for the entreprenurial types, the idea of owning a cafe or a small business near the beach or backpacker trail is impossible -- hidden agendas and hidden dreams are quickly washed away once it is fully realized that one's stay is limited, at best. Men never really find a small pond since the dateing pool for them is much larger (see reason #3).

Second, hypocrisy and graft are rampant. While these things are not well liked by anyone, it is perhaps men who perpetrate these things the most, and also who benefit from them. The idea that a man can have several wives and can flaunt it is put in stark contrast to a woman who must be married before she can be out without a chapperone. Generally, males tend to deal with this type of situation, and while it runs rampant here, does little to further the interests of women in general, other than reminding them that should something go wrong, there will be no one there to help them.

Third, and while I know several really excellent Viet men, they are few and far between. Mostly boys, and they don't mature quickly -- most teachers would say that they are 4 years behind their peers in other countries, but I think that is being nice. The women, on the other hand, are wearing traditional dress from an early age, mature earlier, and are generally better educated than their male counterparts. It is easy to see why a man would be interested in a Vietnamese woman, but as a woman, finding interest in a Vietnamese man would be difficult. Add the difficulty of becoming a "trophy" girlfriend or to be treated as a 2nd or 3rd wife, and the dating situation becomes more complex. Men must always worry about overzealous Viets being rude to their Vietnamese gfs or wives, but this is not the case for the western female. She can do as she pleases without much trouble from anyone. No one cares what she does. She is not a threat, as western males can be preceived. She is the hunted, rather than the hunter. This must be psychologically limiting.

Thus, for most western women, their is not much keeping them here socially, and even if one was in love with the food and opportunities, it would still become a place to exit within a year's time. If you were here with your partner, or even met someone that you really liked who was staying for a long time, the situation could be different. As well, if you were a particularly large woman, you might find a good life here.

It is very difficult to be large in Vietnam. Most people are small and skinny. Even the biggest Vietnamese woman I have ever seen is small in contrast to many heavy-set western women. Large women have difficulties riding bikes and motorbikes. Some streets are overly narrow. They have difficulty taking tourist buses, unless they pay for an extra seat. They often congregate in areas that are out of the way and hidden from view. While it is common to see several large men on outside tables drinking beer and sweating in a t-shirt, one would almost never see large women in these arenas. I think because of these settings and situations, that large women find it easy to make a life for themselves. They use taxis and rent cars to travel, thus avoiding the hazards of traveling. They stay out of the more underground areas and cannot become bored of the limited dateing scene -- but have their own secret methods of finding entertainment and affection. I see that many of them are able to live professional lives during the day at their jobs, and then slip off to their private Idaho's in the evenings. I think they are as content and happy as they could be anywhere else in the world.

The whole analysis is relative, and surely open for criticism, so make sure to seperate fact from opinion.

[Kimmy]

Omg....I find Greenacres "large" factor observation as quite bizarre. Obviously speaking from personal experiences.
Vietnam is harsh in many aspects whether it be poor sanitation, climate, pollution or corruption. Reflecting on the way the Vietnamese behave is another issue.
From a female's point of view it does take guts to stick it out in this miserable environment. The majority of the people are so prententious toward foreigners. They seem to be motivated by only financial gain.
On a lighter note, there are the decent few who do exist amongst the crowds and make it all worthwhile for a foreign female teacher to want to make a difference.
It does depend on what a female desires in life to be attracted to teaching in Vietnam. For some it may be for emotional reasons but for others like myself and other female colleagues it is definately for the achievement of providing high quality education to students and in return receiving a high salary with benefits.
I do have friends who are married to Vietnamese men and I am always impressed as to how their men treat them. Furthermore, they are very aware that the multiple wife and girly scene exists here. Come on people...... there are men all over the world having their thing on the side. What makes foreign men an exception? They participate in crazy stuff...check out what that hanky panky Rockfella guy from Melbourne, Australia got up to before he was murdered. Has anyone ever wondered why the Viet men smoke, drink and "play" so much? Maybe it's because their demanding, discontent, money hungry spouses drive them to these addictive activities.
Yes....to be a willing female teacher in this wretched country can be so depressing at times and it's true that there are not many of us here. I think that men are more tolerant and accepting compared to us chicks.
Personally, I prefer to soak up whatever comforts are available here such as five star dining and a chauffeur driven car. I don't want to sound arrogant but these luxuries do make life bearable so please don't attack me for mentioning this.
Gentlemen. I rest my case. You all win hands up. There is more available here in your favour. I might just pop out for a nice ,LARGE, cold beer then I'll try to seek out and persuade any LARGE female teachers who disceetly hide under LARGE rocks to add their comments to this refreshing topic. . (Just kidding folks ) Cheers

[mark_in_saigon]

Yeah, I think it is as reasonable to expect an apology around here as it is to expect to be able to walk on the sidewalk without fear of being run down by a motorbike.
We are about to get another locked thread here guys, as we are speaking of things that will always p.o. folks. You know, one of the fascinating things about this place (VN) is how clear and obvious �injustices� are, like for example, how vehicles have the right to force you to move off the sidewalk. I mean, that is a small example, but we all face this kind of stuff. The examples relating to human �worth�, poverty, people taking advantage of it, that sort of thing, automatically gets people to start blasting. These are not subjects that can be approached dispassionately, regardless of if you are a victim, an abuser, or a nice guy trying to make the best of it and even help some people in the process. When speaking (or writing actually) of these matters, it is just too radioactive. Of course these issues are a big part of life for the expat community. They are most likely related to the original intent of this thread (I think, apparently it was mangled due to the original edit), but anyway, did relate to what most of the posters were interested in (as the conversation developed), and certainly it does relate to the subject, if not directly then at least tangentially. I even think the bitterness displayed by some members in these threads is educational, and can be considered illuminating in a way not intended by those writers. These are your peers, for better or for worse, it helps us understand why these countries have the opinions they do of us as westerners.
Personally, I think it is great for ladies to come here. I love to see them here. I have been with my share of ladies in the states, and know what level of comfort and luxury they desire. I was not a rich man, I shared an adequate life with them, not fancy. None of them would have been satisfied with this, not one. I think if they come here, they will elevate the general opinion of westerners. I have already stated my opinion on it being too difficult for most of them, as well as for many men. It aint easy, and the special rewards are not the same. Like it, hate it, whatever, there it is. But regardless, we are intelligent people, we should try to be friends, or if we are not friendly, perhaps we should go do what pleases us in a solitary way. This should be a community that shares and tries to help, not that belittles and attempts to tear others down. I have seen plenty of that in my life already, I know where it ends, and it is a sad, bitter and wretched way to live a life. Any of us could be dead tomorrow, you see what it is like. The central message of life here is you have to accept, to fit in. We are all part of this mass of humanity, but often they are happier than us, despite their poverty. We should learn a lesson from them.

[Oh My God]

Kimmy wrote:

[Kimmy]

I must agree with the above post. Vietnam is, overall, a matriarchal society. This way of functioning, of course, begins in the home then gradually flows into the classroom and eventually becomes the Vietnam as some of us know it as today.
I have observed many situations where male students behave in a dominating manner while in the presence of their female counterparts. However, I have also witnessed many fascinating situations where these resilient beauties, in a very subtle way, dominate the classroom quite effectively.

I must admit that I try to avoid disciplining a female student if I need to because I am well aware of the consequences. Vietnamese girls are the perfect students. Their quiet presence in the classroom is a delight. Their neat handwriting is always a bonus yet their sweet softly spoken words in the English language can be annoying. "Girls! I have heard you shouting and yelling in the corridors many times." I apprehensively scold them during the lesson. "Why can't you speak a little louder so that I can hear your answers to the questions?" This kind of confrontation by me fails to stimulate my over sensitive students. I then have the task of facing many weeks of a group of unresponsive students out for a quiet revenge stirred up by the girls who are having a "sad" I find this all quite intriguing.

I think that Vietnamese males are less mature than Vietnamese females. This is particularly noticeable in the classroom. Male students seem to be real momma boys. Female students appear to be more developed in an emotional sense. Whereas, to compare them to students from other parts of the world the results can be remarkably different. In my opinion, a lot of the chicks are in power here.

I do have a soft spot for the Vietnamese. I always have and I always will. For a foreign female teacher to associate with the Vietnamese culture on a daily basis, many skills and strategies need to be implemented. Most importantly, an awareness of the poor sanitation conditions needs to be considered. Personal health can be seriously affected by ones own ignorance of simple eating and drinking habits. Socially.... well the leisure scene is extremely limited here. I am not exaggerating here. I need to rely on others to do my shopping for me, take my dog for a walk and now I have a hairdresser who comes to my home to do my hair. This is absurd, I know, but I have grown very weary of all of the stares, attention, questions and whispering that I have to face when I am in public. My world has become strangely minute but it changes immensely when I am in the teaching world here and back home abroad with my loved ones.

[lucreziaborgia]

I reduced the essential details of my life down to the same cafes, laundry, fruit and vegetable vendors, bank, taxi company, tailor, cleaner, hairdresser and beautician once I settled down in both Hanoi and HCMC. I went out rather than have any of them come to my apartment as I needed to be part of the community in which I lived. I rarely needed to go outside my suburb in both cities except for work. Occasionally I travelled by local bus. I rarely needed to haggle over prices because I was known by local people who looked after me extremely well.
I found paying a little more got me good service and I was grateful for that otherwise my life would have been difficult. I knew people who haggled over a few Dong and observed the lack of service they received.
I apply the same principles in my current location and receive the same quality of service that I did in VN.
I don't think it matters whether a woman is thin or fat; young or old if she is a respectful and competent person. People are the same everywhere and don't take kindly to abuse and insensitivity. Westerners are guests in VN and should want to behave well. It is a more interesting and challenging country than most and one can learn much if one exercises humility.

[mark_in_saigon]

Very interesting post, Kimmy. I think your feelings illustrate some of the differences between what it is like for men compared to women. Of course, we know some of the attention is negative, but as a man, a lot of the attention is quite flattering. Personally, the times I am annoyed by it are few, and the times I am pleased by it are numerous. I suspect if I were a woman I would not feel that way.
Would you share what age groups you mostly work with? I would imagine they are not college age, based on your comments, but that is just my guess. Also, it would be interesting to know what your location is. I felt working in HN that the students were a bit more serious and disciplined, but I surely am not experienced enough to make that generalization, that is also a guess. Not sure what �power� you are referencing, but I think it is always the case that women have a special power, based on the biological imperative and the relative needs of each gender. With the lesser quantity of �gettin down� goin on here (compared to the west), that power may be relatively stronger, here. But maybe you are speaking of something completely different.
God help us all with the sanitation. I don�t see a solution to this, unless you eat at pricey places, and even then who really knows what is going on back there. They do not share our standards, they are not even aware of proper food handling techniques, from my observations. It is like dodging scooters, sooner or later one is gonna get ya.
I think when you speak of the social scene or leisure scene, you get to the heart of one of the main differences for expat men and women here. Of course as a woman you are considered immoral if you carouse around like a lot of these guys. Naughty. But the men seem to get the big pass on it, and additionally, they are easily able to have some very high quality fun, for a very low price (not to imply we are buying love), if they manage their acts properly. So that is one of the big rewards for us, and we do not have to be dogs about it. Some of us are quite sincere, and are not only trying to run up numbers, we just want happiness with some special one. Some of us have other agendas as well.
Well, it is about time to be told what a bunch of blabbermouths we are, or jerks, or newbies, so might I apologize in advance for all of our sins, and more. We know you, we accept you, we care for you. It will never be too late to accept our friendship, please let go of your anger, you are among your friends.

[jb0072009]

Has anyone ever wondered why the Viet men smoke, drink and "play" so much? Maybe it's because their demanding, discontent, money hungry spouses drive them to these addictive activities.

I am married to one and amen to that. This culturally is a matriarchial society. The wife controls the money, the man makes it. She makes all decisions regarding how the money is spent. This applies even to well educated wealthy Viets that I have known. The men are treated like dogs, pets. It is funny because the western men think that asian women are docile and submissive. In reality here in Nam it is just the opposite. In public they appear to be that way but in private they are the bosses

[mark_in_saigon]

one of my vn friends, a very educated man, told me that in the previous generation (not this one) the man would often search for his mate at the market, as he wanted a woman who would be firm with her negotiating skills, while not making her opponent (the person selling) lose face. I think he kinda meant she would take good care of the money, without beating up on others (the husband?) too badly. Very interesting some of the things you hear from these folks.

Another comment, or question. I wonder if one could generalize that the VN ladies who marry westerners are even more focused on money than the average VN lady married to a VN man. It would make sense to me. I was thinking of starting a new thread about scooters of all things, as it seems that they are quite a status symbol, and some perfectly good (but boring) scooters are heavily discounted, esp by women here, because they are not sexy enough. Anyone want to discuss that? Is it a legal topic? New thread? Stand in the corner on this one too?

[clayrview]

Have lived in Korea, now Shanghai, moving to HCM in August for international school job with boyfriend in tow.

Am getting a bit bummed living in Shanghai, not having a close group of girlfriends, and getting the impression that Vietnam might be more of the same.... (all the women either domestic/married or really bitter lol)

Boyfriend and I agree that it was easy to meet people (friends) both male and female in Korea, as no one was really looking for settled relationships and just out for a good time. Would commonly go to a bar and just strike up a conversation with another expat, and meeting people from all around the world is why I'm in this teaching aboard business!

Shanghai seems the opposite with a plethora of men taking on Shanghai women, that coerce them into a very domestic existence.

Whats it like in HCM? Easy to meet random people, and make friends? Or do the expats keep to their own?

[inky]

Be careful not to let the comments of a handful of males predispose you to certain expectations, come with an open mind and learn for yourself. There is good info posted here, you just have to read carefully (or in some cases, not at all) to separate the wheat. Plenty of friendly, kind and interesting people in Vietnam, mostly Vietnamese.