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lisa111082
Joined: 20 Sep 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Too close to Mt. Fuji
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 Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Thoughts on this job offer |
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| KnockoutNed wrote: |
| 5-C. Up to 30,000 may be deducted from the final payment of wages as a deposit to cover expenses. After all bills have been paid from this deposit, any reminder will be returned to the Teacher with receipts. |
... bills? Expenses? I bet you won't see that 30,000 again. |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| It's great that a lot of you guys already have experience living and working in Japan, and I've found your advice very helpful. But I was wondering how much that relates to the current market, entry-level jobs in particular. I've seen a fair few job offers for the April 2010 start and this contract doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary in comparison. |
Then why do you say this a bit later in this post?
I'm not necessarily saying that this is the job to take that chance with
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Because I am no authority on the matter, having never worked in Japan, and know very little about the background of the person asking whether the job is a good one. I just wanted to point out that as someone who has searched through a fair few bottom rung jobs in the last few months, this contract doesn't look like anything out of the ordinary.
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1) There may be no perfect contract or employer, but I would have to say that most are reliable and legitimate places (except dispatch agencies, which are getting a LOT of press lately, so perhaps this is where you are getting the plethora of negativity, well deserved).
2) If one is satisfied to cut corners and forsake a contract clause here and there, by all means come. Employers may try to bully teachers into accepting certain clauses (>1 month to resign, penalties for various things, etc.), but they are illegal, and employers often back down when confronted with the law.
3) People must be more realistic in their outlook on what to expect when they come here. Teacher glut means more competition, so just any old Tom, Dick, and Harry may not get in as easily as before (exceptions will exist, of course). Salaries are falling, so many of us tell people to try holding out for what has been standard for decades (250,000 yen/month). If it's not possible, don't complain on these boards because it won't go far to help.
4) These forums are extremely helpful to newbies and veterans alike, but posters must be sensible and listen to advice. Many don't. Instead, they have their own visions of "what ought to be" or what they wish for and stampede ahead without regard for those who've already weathered the storms and give warnings. I repeat, people on these forums are very helpful, but posters also have to provide more information in the beginning so we know where you are coming from (education, experience, goals career-wise and financially whether short- or long-term).
These may not seem like much in the way of positives, but that's about all you can get when the economy is the way it is. |
I agree with all of that completely, you're preaching to the converted. I think your posts on this forum would be even better were you to always include points 1-4 as a footnote!
I wasn't suggesting that you go out of your way to try and be positive. I've done a lot of research and made my decision with full knowledge of the risks involved. I wasn't really referring to myself though, I actually think we have the same intention of trying to encourage people to consider things for themselves.
I'm interested to hear your opinion on what you think someone in my situation might reasonably be able to expect from their first job in Japan, I believe I'm by no means atypical. I've got no teaching experience and a BA. The bare minimum. To my credit I have an introductory TEFL certiciate, have spent five years in a good job in a respected company, my degree is in English and I have visited Japan, although I expect all of this is of little note to most potential employers. I wanted to have everything sorted from overseas (England in my case) before I arrived in Japan, and it appeals to me to work office hours with my weekends free. Do I have much of an option beyond dispatch? |
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my_way
Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Posts: 72
Location: tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: |
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i thought this was a joke......  |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| OneJoelFifty wrote: |
| I'm interested to hear your opinion on what you think someone in my situation might reasonably be able to expect from their first job in Japan, I believe I'm by no means atypical. I've got no teaching experience and a BA. The bare minimum. To my credit I have an introductory TEFL certiciate, have spent five years in a good job in a respected company, my degree is in English and I have visited Japan, although I expect all of this is of little note to most potential employers. I wanted to have everything sorted from overseas (England in my case) before I arrived in Japan, and it appeals to me to work office hours with my weekends free. Do I have much of an option beyond dispatch? |
A vanilla BA (albeit in English) and a TEFL certificate, plus a visit (how long? How long ago? Where did you go?)
All of the above are positive points. Most newbies have a degree unrelated to English or teaching, but even with one in those fields, they may not be considered differently by some employers. Case by case.
If you want everything sorted out beforehand, you are definitely not limited to dispatch! In fact, I'd say with all the negative reports about them, you'd be better off going with an eikaiwa, but it's going to have to be a big one if you can't come here first.
That limits you to about a dozen places, plus JET.
Your desire to have "weekends free" is going to have to be given up if you go an eikaiwa route, and I think you should seriously compare eikaiwa work and dispatch work before you nix eikaiwas.
1) You have a generic background, so you are in no position to negotiate much if anything.
2) Not all eikaiwas are horrible, and I'll stick my neck out to say they are better than dispatch agencies in reputation in general.
Eikaiwas will often give "weekends" as 2 days a week that may not be consecutive (Sunday, Tuesday, e.g.). Some will let people swap shifts, so you might get 2 in a row, though. Figure that early on, as a newbie you shouldn't be entitled to rock the boat or ask for more than what most people get.
You'll be here learning 2 things: how to do your job, and what Japan itself is like outside of your office (that may include studying the language). These are huge things that will take lots of time, and as much as you may want to come to see the sights, you are going to be working, and that must take priority. Employers don't hire people to be paid tourists; they have businesses to run, and even before the economy slipped into the toilet, they were serious about getting butts on seats to stay there. Teachers who party a lot and show up late or hung over just don't do that for them. Teachers who ask for days off to go sightseeing are not seen in a good light because they are perceived as not being "company people" who think of the business first. Keep this in mind.
What should newbies expect from a first job here?
1) Dispatch ALT. Probably flit from school to school with little consistency in what is taught or learned. A coworker (JTE) who may/may not see you as a professional coworker (likely more as a nuisance to be tolerated plus someone to help give pronunciation help in class). This will vary a lot. Anyway textbooks will be farcical at best, students will be unmotivated most of the time as you struggle to understand the system. They will be curious about you as a foreigner, with the most simplistic of questions if any. The dispatch will be of little help and will probably have illegal clauses in their contract. Hard to say whether they will give a fair performance review. You will get 60% of your salary during breaks.
2) Eikaiwa instructor. Could teach adults or kiddies or both (not together). Most adults will be there just to kill time and socialize (including with you and each other). No homework generally, but since they have their own lives, they won't study anything from week to week, and if they miss one class, everything will be forgotten. Classes will usually be lumped into levels according to ability (perhaps even judged by you). Textbooks are a little better, but there is a huge number of them out. The eikaiwa may/may not have its own format you have to follow (choose a big eikaiwa and you WILL have to follow it). Classes are far smaller (50-10 compared to ALT classes of 30-40), and the atmosphere will be much more casual, but there will be some people who want real lessons. The key here is for you to NOT talk so much but give them the experience and feedback so they learn how to do what they weren't taught in JHS/HS. Management may be nice or an ogre. You may be forced to stay in the building all day except for breaks, or you might be allowed to leave as you please. Could have 2-4 classes a day or as many as 8-10. Contracts are a bit more promising on the legal side. You will finish at 9pm or so, and then decide whether to go out with coworkers or go home and do whatever you can (study, watch TV/DVDs, surf the net, etc.). Mornings will be spent doing household stuff before you leave for work around noon.
There is a lot more to it than that, but those are the basics.
A third option for some may be to get work at a company (Toyota, Sony, etc.) where they hire directly to teach business English or to work at a business English agency (Sumikin, Simul, Phoenix Associates), but the latter usually require some previous work experience in a certain field so you know the jargon. Work directly for the company, and you will be immersed in Japanese language with probably nobody to help you survive. Work for a dispatch agency, and it's like a traveling eikaiwa, but with a more organized plan often customized by the agency for each client. Attendance may be sporadic due to people's schedules even though they are often required to attend the classes. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
1) Dispatch ALT. Probably flit from school to school with little consistency in what is taught or learned. A coworker (JTE) who may/may not see you as a professional coworker (likely more as a nuisance to be tolerated plus someone to help give pronunciation help in class). This will vary a lot. Anyway textbooks will be farcical at best, students will be unmotivated most of the time as you struggle to understand the system. They will be curious about you as a foreigner, with the most simplistic of questions if any. The dispatch will be of little help and will probably have illegal clauses in their contract. Hard to say whether they will give a fair performance review. You will get 60% of your salary during breaks.
2) Eikaiwa instructor. Could teach adults or kiddies or both (not together). Most adults will be there just to kill time and socialize (including with you and each other). No homework generally, but since they have their own lives, they won't study anything from week to week, and if they miss one class, everything will be forgotten. Classes will usually be lumped into levels according to ability (perhaps even judged by you). Textbooks are a little better, but there is a huge number of them out. The eikaiwa may/may not have its own format you have to follow (choose a big eikaiwa and you WILL have to follow it). Classes are far smaller (50-10 compared to ALT classes of 30-40), and the atmosphere will be much more casual, but there will be some people who want real lessons. The key here is for you to NOT talk so much but give them the experience and feedback so they learn how to do what they weren't taught in JHS/HS. Management may be nice or an ogre. You may be forced to stay in the building all day except for breaks, or you might be allowed to leave as you please. Could have 2-4 classes a day or as many as 8-10. Contracts are a bit more promising on the legal side. You will finish at 9pm or so, and then decide whether to go out with coworkers or go home and do whatever you can (study, watch TV/DVDs, surf the net, etc.). Mornings will be spent doing household stuff before you leave for work around noon.
There is a lot more to it than that, but those are the basics. |
You seem to pick all the negative points that a few people have complained about. Not all ALTs get as low as 60%. We received 75% for summer and 85% for winter (though I got 90% because I had to work an extra day). And although we have to put up with pay reductions, at least we have breaks and time off to go travelling unlike most eikaiwas. Many of us not in ES do not flit from school to school. And there are many eikaiwa positions where you are going to be working at more than one school. All the ALTs (JET, dispatch and direct hirer) in our BOE get quite a few chances to visit and see lessons and interact with students from other schools. We don't have unmotivated students "most of the time". And many school age students in eikaiwa are being forced to go there by parents, not because they want to.
We also have classes in the 20s because the homeroom classes are split into smaller groups especially for English classes (that's not something limited to my school). Decent schools will have decent JTEs that won't see foreigners as an annoyance. Textbooks are a bit crap, which is why in decent schools neither the ALT nor the JTE will be relying soley on the things. Just like with eikaiwa, how helpful/friendly your dispatcher is depends on the management you are under. And illegal clauses are found in just as many of the eikaiwa contracts as in dispatch ones. And the NHI/Shakai Hoken and performance reviews disputes aren't limited to dispatch either.
Not really a good description of the basics. Basically there are just as many issues that you may face working at an eikaiwa or for dispatch, the pay can be similarly crappy in both. But some people are more suited to one type of work than the other. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:46 am Post subject: |
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ou seem to pick all the negative points that a few people have complained about. Not all ALTs get as low as 60%. We received 75% for summer and 85% for winter (though I got 90% because I had to work an extra day). And although we have to put up with pay reductions, at least we have breaks and time off to go travelling unlike most eikaiwas. Many of us not in ES do not flit from school to school. And there are many eikaiwa positions where you are going to be working at more than one school. All the ALTs (JET, dispatch and direct hirer) in our BOE get quite a few chances to visit and see lessons and interact with students from other schools. We don't have unmotivated students "most of the time". And many school age students in eikaiwa are being forced to go there by parents, not because they want to.
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| We also have classes in the 20s because the homeroom classes are split into smaller groups especially for English classes (that's not something limited to my school). Decent schools will have decent JTEs that won't see foreigners as an annoyance. Textbooks are a bit crap, which is why in decent schools neither the ALT nor the JTE will be relying soley on the things. Just like with eikaiwa, how helpful/friendly your dispatcher is depends on the management you are under. And illegal clauses are found in just as many of the eikaiwa contracts as in dispatch ones. And the NHI/Shakai Hoken and performance reviews disputes aren't limited to dispatch either. |
Very true, dispatch companies vary in their treatment of employees, but having had to sue mine over illegal termination, I don't have a high opinion of them.
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| Not really a good description of the basics. Basically there are just as many issues that you may face working at an eikaiwa or for dispatch, the pay can be similarly crappy in both. But some people are more suited to one type of work than the other. |
You are dangerously supporting dispatch companies which very few people would recommend to work for. I'm not saying that the language school are much better, but they almost never offer 3 month contracts. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
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| Not really a good description of the basics. Basically there are just as many issues that you may face working at an eikaiwa or for dispatch, the pay can be similarly crappy in both. But some people are more suited to one type of work than the other. |
You are dangerously supporting dispatch companies which very few people would recommend to work for. I'm not saying that the language school are much better, but they almost never offer 3 month contracts. |
I think I just said the are both as crap as the other. I'd hardly call that supporting one over the other. Besides, a couple of digruntled workers can hardly give you a good overview of a company with thousands of employees. There's not a large company in the world with 100% employee approval rating.
And which ALT dispatch company offers 3 months contracts? And why would them offering that be a bad thing. If you intend to come over for more than 3 months, you'd be crazy to accept that short a contract without considering the risk of not being offered a resign. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:27 am Post subject: |
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I chose mostly negative points for 2 reasons:
1) I hate it when people paint a falsely rosy picture of things here. They need to see both sides.
2) in general I think most people will agree with the negative points for dispatch jobs.
Your exceptions are just that, IMO.
You did raise some good issues, though, about people who teach to non-ES schools being the type who stick to just one school. As for eikaiwas that farm out people, yes, that happens, but it's not the majority. Again, my rule of "in general" still holds. And, yes, some schools will divide the classes in half to give you about 20 students each, but you still have to teach them with a JTE. That's the law. I would hedge on agreeing with you when you say "Decent schools will have decent JTEs", and merely ask what overall percentage fit that category? I think it's in the minority, but to what degree I couldn't say.
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| Just like with eikaiwa, how helpful/friendly your dispatcher is depends on the management you are under. And illegal clauses are found in just as many of the eikaiwa contracts as in dispatch ones. And the NHI/Shakai Hoken and performance reviews disputes aren't limited to dispatch either. |
All true, but from reports on these forums, the dispatchers have a worse reputation for all of the above...in general.
Not a good description of the basics? Please offer a better (i.e., more accurate) one. Just remember to write in generalities, not just from your own experiences. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Haven't seen too many recent complaints about them though other than NHI crap and the dropping pay which again is just a rampant in eikaiwa.
And even the complaints I have seen that are company related rather than school related tend to be more of the odd incident against a specific company, so it isn't right to assume that those things are regular occurances across the board for all companies of that type.
Problem with forums, is that people come more to seek advice on problems than to post good experiences. You go to places like Youtube or blog sites and you can find people people posting less negative stuff about their entry-level jobs with many companies. People should definately heed warnings given out on decent forums and definately pay special attention to bad experiences if you are looking at employment in that sector, but if all the major complaints are happening so often across the board, why aren't there at least weekly reports of the misdeeds.
I agree that it is wrong when people paint rosy pictures and that people should see both sides and if you look at my Interac posts, you will see that whilst I talk about mine and our BOE's ALTs' experiences in relatively positively light, I do also point out bad points too. I also mention that dispatch jobs aren't the best and often point out that if somebody can hold out for JET then they should and admit myself that despite not having any complaints with my current position, if I had had a choice between the two, I would have gone with JET.
But what you did was point out a load of negatives about dispatch (I'm not saying they are false), say that they apply to pretty much all dispatch jobs with all companies - after actually being in contact with many current dispatch ALTs, I can confidently say that really isn't the case - then completely neglect to mention that many of those said negatives can and do come up in eikaiwas, too. Like performance bonus disputes: recent complaints about that were in relation to our apparently Titanic-like eikaiwa, GEOS, but you only mention that it happens in dispatch. So you are indirectly putting a pretty tint on the eikaiwa scene instead of being giving unbiased info.
Mention only the bad points of dispatch, by all means. But you should at least do new readers a favour and fully give the bad on both sides. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| Haven't seen too many recent complaints about them though other than NHI crap and the dropping pay which again is just a rampant in eikaiwa. |
I obviously have seen more.
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| And even the complaints I have seen that are company related rather than school related tend to be more of the odd incident against a specific company, so it isn't right to assume that those things are regular occurances across the board for all companies of that type. |
The "odd incident"? Nope, I see quite a few.
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| if all the major complaints are happening so often across the board, why aren't there at least weekly reports of the misdeeds. |
I see them daily. Don't know where you look.
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| But what you did was point out a load of negatives about dispatch (I'm not saying they are false), say that they apply to pretty much all dispatch jobs with all companies - after actually being in contact with many current dispatch ALTs, I can confidently say that really isn't the case - then completely neglect to mention that many of those said negatives can and do come up in eikaiwas, too. |
I said that later, ok? I just felt they happen more in dispatch. Apparently we disagree. Let's see what others contribute.
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| Mention only the bad points of dispatch, by all means. But you should at least do new readers a favour and fully give the bad on both sides. |
I will not mention only bad points about dispatch. I believe in a fair shake. I just didn't have time to write a lengthy tome on the topic. Let me add in favor of dispatch ALT jobs that the hours are far better than eikaiwa, and that they give people a direct opportunity to see what happens to Japanese kids in public schools. Beyond that, I'm a bit tired to come up with anything more concrete.
As for giving bad on both sides, I think you misread me. I said eikaiwas were not as bad as dispatch, and that not all eikaiwa were bad. Eikaiwas have the problems you mentioned, I won't argue that. It's just that I have seen far more bad reports percentage-wise on dispatch than eikaiwas, that's why. |
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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I love that line about workshops being part of a teachers's "professional responsibility." As we used to say back in the day, that and a token will get you on the subway. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| dove wrote: |
| I love that line about workshops being part of a teachers's "professional responsibility." As we used to say back in the day, that and a token will get you on the subway. |
I thought that clause was possibly the 'rightest' of all of them. It is. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
That limits you to about a dozen places, plus JET.
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He wouldn't even get an interview for JET on that background. |
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KnockoutNed
Joined: 03 Dec 2009
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:50 am Post subject: |
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I just found out that the rent would be 53,000 plus 4,000 for furniture. So total rent is 57,000
The pictures of the room looked decent. I have decided to stay put in Thailand for another year |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Pretty reasonable for rent, although I hate to see employers actually charging people for rented furniture. Gotta wonder how old it is, and whether it's really worth the rent.
I hope you didn't make your decision based on the cost of rent. |
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