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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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 Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
| I never really understood this 5-year rule thing or what the purpose of it is. Anyone have any idea why they do things like this? |
has anyone on this forum ever considered the requirements that foreigners have to meet to work in your country? many of the same questions that get asked here on eslcafe also get asked by people going as temporary workers to many other countries as well.
if you visit the citizenship and immigration website of your home country you'll see that there are limits on how long foreign workers can stay in that country. In Canada the limit is four years before the employee must leave for a period of time before returning to work again. this five year rule in china should come as no surprise to anyone and is no different than what's practiced elsewhere, although how its actually put into practice will vary from country to country.
here's an example:
Minister Kenney proposes improvements to the Temporary Foreign Worker Program
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| A key element of the measures is to limit the length of such workers� stay in Canada before returning home. Under the plan, after a cumulative total of four years in Canada, they would not be eligible to work in Canada for six years. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Yes. The main difference, to me, is that in other countries, being married to a citizen generally counts for something. In China ... not so much. A long tourist visa that does not allow you to work -- that's about all the noble institution affords you in China. |
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gene
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: |
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zero, depending on the place where the application is requested and the time period, married aliens (in most western countries) are also given a period of waiting before allowing to work. Same in China.
The link in this thread is the recommendations for guidelines and are in no way to be considered Chinese immigration rules. |
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Mister Al
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 840
Location: In there
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Jayray wrote: |
"They refused to do the transfer because he'd go from having a teaching visa to an employment visa..."
A Z visa IS an employment visa. |
True but the documents supporting the application for a Z visa are different if you are a teacher or another type of worker. I think we both know that's what he meant.  |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| gene wrote: |
zero, depending on the place where the application is requested and the time period, married aliens (in most western countries) are also given a period of waiting before allowing to work. Same in China.
The link in this thread is the recommendations for guidelines and are in no way to be considered Chinese immigration rules. |
Yes, but in China it is not a waiting period. You just plain can't work. The only way you can work is to get a Z-visa like anyone else. In the U.S., foreign spouses can get green cards, citizenship, regular jobs like anyone else on the job market. In other words they can integrate into society and feel security about making a living and not being kicked out of the country. In China, not the case. To say you are kept at arm's length would be an understatement. |
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Cairnsman
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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There are a number of aspects of raclyn72�s story that I don�t understand.
Raclyn72 wrote, �My passport expired in February this year and that meant my rp and z visa also expired.� My passport expired in April 2008. The RP it contained expired in August 2008. I got a new passport at the Australian consulate in Guangzhou. They returned my old passport which was imprinted (not stamped) �cancelled� through the entire thickness of the passport. For the following 4 months I carried 2 passports with me including two trips to Hong Kong. My passports were also checked several times when I was riding on the Guangzhou subway (lead up to the Olympics). I never had a problem. Expiration of a passport does not cause an RP to expire.
Raclyn72 wrote, � . . . .that meant my rp and z visa . . . .� An RP replaces / takes the place of a Z visa which, in any event, is only valid for 30 days.
Raclyn72 also wrote, �my boss has been working on getting my new z visa and rp . . . . .and I have had meetings about me going to Hong Kong to get my new z visa and such.� When my RP expired it was renewed. There was no need for a new Z visa; no need for a trip to Hong Kong.
Monash College, which operates within Huamei International School in Guangzhou, has an Australia teacher who is now in his 9th year. Guangdong Industry and Technical College has a Canadian teacher who is now in his 7th year.
From a reliable source, I heard about a teacher in Hunan or Henan (can�t remember which) whose RP was declined renewal after 5 years of continuous service at one school. Rather than leave China, he secured a job in Chongqing and was given a new RP in that province without any hassle. |
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mike w
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1071
Location: Beijing building site
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Let's just simplify this issue a little.
There is no 5-year rule, and never has been.
This so-called rule has been issued by SAFEA, who do not make the rules - they issue guidelines. How long you stay is not up to SAFEA. If there really was such a rule which was enforcable, then many long-timers like me (15-years in China) would be in serious trouble.
This is a guideline from SAFEA, that many schools, provinces etc. appear to mis-use to get rid of teachers who, for whatever reason they no longer want. |
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mrwslee003
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: 5 yr rule? |
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Never heard of the 5 year rule!!!
I know some of my colleagues have been in China for more than 5 years.
They never had to leave for 2 years after each 5 years in China.
Here comes the question: I wonder what is that official upto by invoking
this 5 year rule. It does not make sense to me because China needs lots more teachers and can't just change to a new batch after each 5 years.
If you go to Hong Kong and pay your fees with invitation for employment,
I don't think they would ask "Have you been in China over 5 years already?" |
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gene
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Yes, but in China it is not a waiting period. |
I stand corrected. I got my information from those who had the Green Card and they are under the impression that they can legally work, but I will caution them to recheck their facts.
I believe Mike W is correct as to the "rule". |
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themanymoonsofjupiter
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 205
Location: The Big Link
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| mike w wrote: |
Let's just simplify this issue a little.
There is no 5-year rule, and never has been.
This so-called rule has been issued by SAFEA, who do not make the rules - they issue guidelines. How long you stay is not up to SAFEA. If there really was such a rule which was enforcable, then many long-timers like me (15-years in China) would be in serious trouble.
This is a guideline from SAFEA, that many schools, provinces etc. appear to mis-use to get rid of teachers who, for whatever reason they no longer want. |
just had the SAFEA TEFL training course (won't get into its usefulness), but at the end the SAFEA representative was asked about this "must leave for 2 years after 5" rule printed in the book they gave us. she wasn't sure about this and wrote us after a couple days, saying that if you are in china for five years straight (never leaving the country), you have to leave. it doesn't have to be for two years or even two days--just leave then come back in.
there's no question that it's just a way to get rid of teachers, as many have already said. |
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johntpartee
Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 3258
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| The new FAO here took the SAFEA course and told me afterwards that "leaving China" entails SETTING FOOT ON FOREIGN SOIL (Hong Kong counts). No set amount of time has to be spent on said foreign soil. He also told me that there are ways around this "rule" (sorta like everything else). |
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mrwslee003
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: please check sources! |
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Oh goodness.
As if the Fts don't have any more to worry about. Please check and
double check your sources before posting.
And those reading please have your salt shakers ready.....  |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| gene wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, but in China it is not a waiting period. |
I stand corrected. I got my information from those who had the Green Card and they are under the impression that they can legally work, but I will caution them to recheck their facts.
I believe Mike W is correct as to the "rule". |
I wasn't talking about China's proverbial green card. If a person indeed has a green card issued by China, then they are free to work. No need for a Z-visa, etc. The green card is good for 10 years, I think, and can be renewed. The problem is, average mortals are very unlikely ever to get a green card. It's mostly for high-flying business types. Even if you are married to a Chinese person, you need to show stable employment, which precludes most teachers, who work on one-year (non-"stable") contracts. You need to have stable housing, meaning a house that you own, etc. etc. The bottom line is, English teachers do not get green cards from China. Ironically, to apply a green card, you need to have worked in China for five years -- exactly when the SAFEA guidelines are trying to kick you out!
I was, rather, talking about the so-called "long L" visa. It is a tourist visa, but issued for a longer time, as long as one year, for "visiting relatives." It is relatively easy to get if you are married to a Chinese citizen. It is renewable every year without the need to leave the country. It does not allow you to work. In my opinion, it is a pretty sorry option for keeping a family together. It very much shows that China is not interested in foreigners, even those married to its citizens, sticking around for too long. And the message to Chinese who marry foreigners is: Fair enout, but if you like foreigners so much, then get out of our country, please. |
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gene
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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I know several teachers (long term within china) with the so called "green card" and I was equating a "western" green card to that of China as I thought that a green card was the standard used to determine work status.
As I recall, upon marring a citizen from many countries there is a waiting period and then a application process to go through before obtain work permission or a 'green card" which is necessary to legally work. Please correct me if I am wrong.
| Quote: |
| It very much shows that China is not interested in foreigners, even those married to its citizens, sticking around for too long. |
Actually that is the impression I got from my own embassy when I applied for a visa for my then fiancee.
The L visa as I understand it is also listed as a relative visitation visa and isn't considered a "marriage visa". Perhaps teaching "English" with the status of a Foreign Teacher is not considered a permanent job or gainful employment as to its temporary nature and thus, cannot be considered stable enough to base an immigration status.
Lets put it this way. If a visiting teacher to one of our native countries married a citizen, would they be given work status immediately or would they have to go through a process. Just a question so don't shoot me for asking, but I just don't see the implication you infer from the immigration laws. |
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General Franco
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| gene wrote: |
I know several teachers (long term within china) with the so called "green card" and I was equating a "western" green card to that of China as I thought that a green card was the standard used to determine work status.
As I recall, upon marring a citizen from many countries there is a waiting period and then a application process to go through before obtain work permission or a 'green card" which is necessary to legally work. Please correct me if I am wrong.
| Quote: |
| It very much shows that China is not interested in foreigners, even those married to its citizens, sticking around for too long. |
Actually that is the impression I got from my own embassy when I applied for a visa for my then fiancee.
The L visa as I understand it is also listed as a relative visitation visa and isn't considered a "marriage visa". Perhaps teaching "English" with the status of a Foreign Teacher is not considered a permanent job or gainful employment as to its temporary nature and thus, cannot be considered stable enough to base an immigration status.
Lets put it this way. If a visiting teacher to one of our native countries married a citizen, would they be given work status immediately or would they have to go through a process. Just a question so don't shoot me for asking, but I just don't see the implication you infer from the immigration laws. |
There is no such thing as a 'Green Card' in China. Posters, please check other, more reliable sources! |
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