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Can anyone recommend a book on Saudi Arabia?
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kindle..? Bah ......like the internal combustion engine, a passing fad ! It won't last.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Vancouver Girl,

"He takes an extremely complicated history and makes it quite readable."

Yes, he is a great simplifier, as is Samuel Huntington:


"The clash of civilizations will dominate global politics. The fault lines between civilizations will be the battle lines of the future."

Most of the argument in the pages that followed relied on a vague notion of something Huntington called "civilization identity" and "the interactions among seven or eight [sic] major civilizations," of which the conflict between two of them, Islam and the West, gets the lion's share of his attention. In this belligerent kind of thought, he relies heavily on a 1990 article by the veteran Orientalist Bernard Lewis, whose ideological colors are manifest in its title, "The Roots of Muslim Rage." In both articles, the personification of enormous entities called "the West" and "Islam" is recklessly affirmed, as if hugely complicated matters like identity and culture existed in a cartoonlike world where Popeye and Bluto bash each other mercilessly, with one always more virtuous pugilist getting the upper hand over his adversary. Certainly neither Huntington nor Lewis has much time to spare for the internal dynamics and plurality of every civilization, or for the fact that the major contest in most modern cultures concerns the definition or interpretation of each culture, or for the unattractive possibility that a great deal of demagogy and downright ignorance is involved in presuming to speak for a whole religion or civilization. No, the West is the West, and Islam Islam."

http://www.thenation.com/article/clash-ignorance

'Nuff Said?

Regards,
John
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Mia Xanthi



Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inside the Kingdom by Robert Lacey. Ok, go ahead and start bashing me, but I enjoyed reading it.

Also, there was something recently written on the Kingdom by Robert Baer...Sleeping with the Devil, I think.

One book that I really enjoyed pre-KSA was Extreme Islam by Adam Parfrey. It's a collection of anti-American, pro-Jihadist articles written by everyone you can imagine. Very interesting to read the original stuff rather than someone's analysis of the stuff.

Currently I am reading Thicker than Oil by Rachel Bronson. Written like someone's boring dissertation, but full of information.

You don't have to agree with the perspective of everything you read in order for it to provide helpful knowledge pre-KSA.
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed



Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mia Xanthi wrote:
...Thicker than Oil...


Sounds like some people I know. Wink

In regards to them, I'm currently writing a tome entitled "Bag o' Hammers"... Laughing ... Shocked ... Laughing

NCTBA
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Mia,

If you think YOU'RE going to get bashed . . . .

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Saudi Arabia by Colin Wells

I liked it so much, I even wrote a review for it on Amazon:

"I began reading it with skepticism, looking for mistakes, misinterpretations, prejudices, spin, etc. Gradually, however, I realized that this author knew exactly what he was writing about. Moreover, his style makes reading about the Kingdom exceptionally enjoyable,
I would highly recommend this book to anyone who wants to be fully informed about Saudi Arabia, and I would call it required reading for anyone who plans to go there."


http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Understanding-Arabia/dp/1592571131

Regards,
John
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mia Xanthi wrote:
Inside the Kingdom by Robert Lacey. Ok, go ahead and start bashing me, but I enjoyed reading it.
I promise not to bash you. I will save my bashing for authors. Interestingly the hardcover of that book is on sale at Amazon for $10 while the paperback is $11... a bit of an oddity. Actually I have his previous book from the '80s called "The Kingdom" which has a great collection of old pictures. The older one is a good background book and it includes an extensive bibliography, appendices, and source notes before the very detailed index. I suspect the sequel that you mention has the same. For that reason alone they are probably worth the price.

But, I'm not sure how much they prepare one for life there. Laughing I guess he should just get the book John suggests as an intro.

VS
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you counter with the predictable "Oh, there's hate speech everywhere," I would say it's less pervasive in more sophisticated societies


Yeah, because why would anyone bother saying anything predictable when one can simply come out with something as startlingly fresh and original as 'most people in these parts who complain about "pro-Zionist" and profess anti-Zionism are actually antisemitic.' Yawn. It's just about the most lame and hackneyed - not to mention cynical - line in the book. Quite aside from the fact that, as VS says, its abuse over decades has made the term 'anti-semitism' almost meaningless (something which will obscure those incidents of genuine anti-semitism which sadly still do go on), you have to wonder if those who inanely resort to the ol' AS slur are so concerned about the (often extreme) anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bigotry which motivates not a few Zionists, among them Bush's favourite academic, Professor Lewis.

Anyway, back to the OP.

There are quite a few books on Saudi ARabia, but not so many good ones. I haven't read Lacey's newer work, but I did read his "THe Kingdom" before my arrival in said Kingdom several years ago. It was out of date then and it's even more out of date now, but it's not a bad primer on the history of Saudi Arabia.

"The Rise, Corruption and Coming Fall of the House of Saud" by Said Aburish is also interesting, but out of date. Also, as the title suggests, it overstates its case somewhat, predicting the fall of the dynasty.. oh about 10 years ago!

"The Battle for Saudi Arabia" by Assad AbuKhalil is a good - and very critical - read, but hard to find. Like Aburish, AbuKhalil has the advantage of being able to speak Arabic, something many self-styled 'experts' on the Kingdom are completely unable to do.

I've heard good things about this book, but haven't got round to reading it myself yet, so can't personally comment:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Americas-Kingdom-Mythmaking-Frontier-Societies/dp/0804754462/ref=sr_1_2/277-4199812-0385413?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273670718&sr=1-2

There are lots of 'expat guide to Saudi Arabia' type books. They're a good way to get a general idea of life and culture in the Kingdom, and are worth reading so long as you don't expect them to be completely accurate or relevant to your situation. Many of them seem geared toward high-earners and Kompound Kathys, but can stil be useful for background information.

Will post about more books as and when I think of them.
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Sheikh N Bake



Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 1307
Location: Dis ting of ours

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cleopatra wrote:
Quote:
If you counter with the predictable "Oh, there's hate speech everywhere," I would say it's less pervasive in more sophisticated societies


Yeah, because why would anyone bother saying anything predictable when one can simply come out with something as startlingly fresh and original as 'most people in these parts who complain about "pro-Zionist" and profess anti-Zionism are actually antisemitic.' Yawn. It's just about the most lame and hackneyed - not to mention cynical - .


Doesn't matter if it's hackneyed. We're not in a writing contest. If you read the rest of my post, and imagine I'm not making up my experiences, you'll know I will stand by them. You'll notice I don't go around describing a racial slur such as "Damn, them's some nappy-headed hos!" as a holocaust.


Last edited by Sheikh N Bake on Wed May 12, 2010 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Doesn't matter if it's hackneyed. We're not in a writing contest.


Well, you were the one who preemptively accused others of making 'predictable' comments.

Quote:
Antisemitism essentially means anti-Jewish sentiment. .


As I've said, Zionists have cynically abused the term so much that it basically means almost nothing anymore. The fact that you duly wheeled it out in response to a simple comment saying that Lewis is pro-Zionist (which he obviously is), constitutes a prime example of this sorry phenonemon.
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Sheikh N Bake



Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 1307
Location: Dis ting of ours

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can agree to disagree. Duly wheeled out and duly noted!

As I said in my amended comments, I didn't make up this sorry phenomenon of genuine antisemitism that I've seen over and over in the Gulf...perhaps starting at Dubai Women's College when both the local press and some students accused us of being Jews (as if that were self-evidently a crime against humanity). I mentioned other examples. It is pervasive, no question.
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I didn't make up this sorry phenomenon of genuine antisemitism that I've seen over and over in the Gulf...perhaps starting at Dubai Women's College when both the local press and some students accused us of being Jews (as if that were self-evidently a crime against humanity). I mentioned other examples.


Firstly, as I said, I'm finding it extremely hard to see what these incidents (and I'm sure you're not making them up) have to do with VS comments about Bernard Lewis. I simply do not see the connection, unless it's the usual knee-jerk attempt to silence criticism of Zionists by resorting to the AS line. Secondly, as I say, there is plenty of extreme anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bigotry among Zionists, but you seem to be concerned about only one form of bigotry.

Quote:
If you read the rest of my post, and imagine I'm not making up my experiences, you'll know I will stand by them


I object to your statement that 'most people in these parts who complain about "pro-Zionist" and profess anti-Zionism are actually antisemitic'. Well, I'm openly anti-Zionist - I have been since long before I came to 'these parts' and will be long after I leave - and I resent being tarred with the ol' AS slur.

ACtually, truth be told I don't resent it. Water off a duck's back by now. Whatever. If people can't actually engage in rational debate and discussion (not that this is the place for it on this subject) let them throw around all the muck they want. Thanks to their hysterical over-use of the term for decades now, that muck just aint' sticking anymore.
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Sheikh N Bake



Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 1307
Location: Dis ting of ours

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, it's a rational debate. "Most people" doesn't necessarily invoke your username here as having been tarred. Yes, I've seen the bigotry on both sides and in fact have seen pervasive bigotry of all kinds in every country I've lived. Experiences perceived, not hystrionics. Since I'm living here and since I have never seen anyone acknowledge on these boards that individuals from a certain country/culture can be good and human, but are only demonized, an occasional reality check is hardly hysterical, whether you like it or not.

Last edited by Sheikh N Bake on Wed May 12, 2010 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cleopatra



Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most people" doesn't necessarily invoke your username here as having been tarred.


As an anti-Zionist living in 'these parts' I'm afraid it sort of does.

But anyway, as I said, like most anti-Zionists I'm long past being overly bothered by this sort of knee-jerk attempt to slur your opponents. It's all gotton very, very old - it might work in the US political scene but has long since been seen through just about everywhere else. I just thought the point had to be made, and made it I have.
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Sheikh N Bake



Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 1307
Location: Dis ting of ours

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well..they are extremely sensitive about the "question" of our topic in Germany, and they make it a crime to deny certain events, as you know. In the Emirates it's a crime to say it happened. Either way the censorship is perhaps a bit extreme.

As an aside, though, I still wonder (and this might be of more interest to VS) how NYU can have a campus in Abu Dhabi and teach a modern history course with all the restrictions. Maybe they're in a Censor-free Zone.
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7atetan



Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 93
Location: Not in the Mediterranean Sea

PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MOD edit
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