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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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 Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:51 am Post subject: |
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With the disclosure I am pro-union, and a member of the union in question, I think I explained quite well how some companies act illegally with some of their contracts. Does this mean all companies act illegally? No. Does it mean that all contracts with the BoEs are illegal? No. However I can recognise even with a company like my own (which, in general, is pretty easy to personally negotiate with) which doesn't do things as they should. From the other places I have applied at, and working situations I have spoken to others about, I believe that at the moment is is more common for a contract to be illegal than it is to be legal.
My experiences and biases admitted, I still never said any particular company (aside from my own) was breaking the law. I have never worked for any of the companies mentioned. I was merely explaining the probable reason other people have made allegations of unlawful activity. I don't need to "full stop" because I wasn't even conning the ship in the direction you are claiming.
Neither has Glenski. One of the greatest rights a person has (and I do believe this is an inherent right, and should be enshrined in more constitutions and legal frameworks than it is) is the right of collective bargaining. The right to negotiate a fair wage and safe/legal conditions for yourself and your colleagues. No one is forcing you to join a union. With the freedom to do something comes the freedom to not do it either. You don't need to worship any particular deity, and you don't need be a newspaper reporter, but you still enjoy freedom of religion and freedom of the press. Likewise, if you are happy with your position, you need not exercise your right to collective bargaining. Are there people who abuse union power? Of course. As with any organisation, and any right (yelling fire in a theatre), the right to collective bargaining can be abused. However, it is unfair to paint the entire labor movement with such a broad brush. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| tdu1510 wrote: |
- Efforts and ideals of unions good!
- Wildly inaccurate and misleading statements bad! |
We agree on these principles. I've been on this and other forums for 13+ years to deal with the latter point more than anything else.
However, your claim that dispatch ALTs are not illegal is in itself inaccurate. Most ALT agencies don't even have the proper license, so that automatically makes them illegal.
As for everything else you wrote, I'm going to ignore it because it is too childishly written to deal with. Learn to treat posters here with respect, ok? You will get more in return.
P.S. I am not a union member. |
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tdu1510
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Kionon:
I am a bit lost on what exactly we are debating. I am addressing the OPs question that can be defined as �Since Companies like Westgate and Interac and Dispatch ALTs are illegal, how can they carry out routine business activity like advertising for new employees?� My answer is that ALT companies in general are clearly not �illegal�.
There have been some claims that some ALTs administered contracts run afoul of labor laws. I take from your statements that with a lot of effort and pressure there has been �warnings issued to the BoEs in question� by one prefecture labor board. This an �illegal company� does not make!
| Kionon wrote: |
| ...However, it is unfair to paint the entire labor movement with such a broad brush. |
What color is the �labor movement� painted with? I have no opinion of it other than a traditional labor union is wholly and completely unsuited to the ESL industry in Japan. A ESL labor union has nil chance of being effective in leading a collective bargaining system. I base this on the fundamental nature of labor markets driven by supply and demand.
Maybe we would get along better if we drop the term �union� and wrote more realistic about a loose teacher's association with a membership of only a small fraction of the teachers working in Japan. It better describes what is going on.
Glenski:
You make a HUGE assumption that I would feel you have anything to offer me in return under the best of circumstances. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| tdu1510 wrote: |
Kionon:
I am a bit lost on what exactly we are debating. I am addressing the OPs question that can be defined as �Since Companies like Westgate and Interac and Dispatch ALTs are illegal, how can they carry out routine business activity like advertising for new employees?� My answer is that ALT companies are clearly not �illegal�. |
Actually, you are making the claim that these companies could not plausibly be acting illegally. I find that claim to be inaccurate. Not only could they be, they may very well actually be. I find the likelihood that some of their contracts, at least, run afoul of some labor code or another to be very high.
Furthermore, Glenski pointed out a third. Both types of dispatching requires a dispatch license for that type. If a company does not have one at all, it is illegal. If it has one dispatch license, but operates differently, then it is acting illegally. I also pointed out ways in which both systems are often abused.
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| There have been some claims that some ALTs administered contracts run afoul of labor laws. I take from your statements that with a lot of effort and pressure there has been �warnings issued to the BoEs in question� by one prefecture labor board. This an �illegal company� does not make! |
Try many claims about many contracts in many areas in regards to several prominent and not so prominent dispatch companies. Bureaucratic steps take time in any country, and Japan is more bureaucratic than many. If you're expecting records of overnight successes, this is unrealistic in the extreme.
I used Osaka only because I live in Kansai, and happen to know they have done this recently, and have done it multiple times recently. They are also probably easier to find information on. They are not the only prefectural board. A named example does not indicate it is the ONLY example.
| Quote: |
| What color is the �labor movement� painted with? I have no opinion of it other than a traditional labor union is wholly and completely unsuited to the ESL industry in Japan. A ESL labor union has nil chance of being effective in leading a collective bargaining system. I base this on the fundamental nature of labor markets driven by supply and demand. |
First off, as Glenski pointed out, most of us do not teach English as a Second Language. We teach English as a Foreign Language. These are actually two distinct disciplines. They have very different end goals. I do not expect my students to become fluent in English and go abroad to an English speaking country on the whole. Perhaps one or two. In several years, but certainly not when they are 12 years old in a public junior high school. My job is to introduce them to English, help them see the value in it for the future, and yes, to be able to pass examinations for high school and eventually university. If I manage to instill a lifelong love of English, so much the better. If I merely manage to increase the odds that a student will become a successful adult, then I have done my job as an educator.
I'm quite adept at economics, and I am quite well versed in the history of the labor movement. I don't follow your claim that "supply and demand" somehow interferes with the ability of a union to function effectively in Japan on behalf of ALTs. I'd ask you what kind of economic model you believe precludes the effective use of organised labor. And even if I granted you its ineffectuality, which I do not, I fail to see how that at all makes individuals who participate in organised labor "zealots." Beyond that, I fail to see why you would care how others exercise their rights.
Of course, I said I wouldn't debate the merits of organised labor with you, and I am going to try not to. Although I will admit this an issue I am passionate about, but I certainly would deny being a zealot. |
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tdu1510
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Kionon wrote: |
| Actually, you are making the claim that these companies could not plausibly be acting illegally... |
Whoa! I made no such claim and do not venture a guess on the mechanics of ALT activities. I am stating there is no substantive ruling by a Japanese authoritative body that ALTs are acting illegal (other than an issued warning). We can post and debate day and night, but until the industry is admonished, directed or otherwise compelled to act differently by a body that can enforce it, the ALTs are acting in a legal way. Not because I say so, but because no real authority who can take action says differently!
| Kionon wrote: |
| Furthermore, Glenski pointed out a third. Both types of dispatching requires a dispatch license |
Yeah, okay if it is true report them to the proper authorities and don't just unfairly indite the whole group of ALTs. If it is again a dispute about what licenses are required, what you and I think about it does not matter a hill of beans, it is for the Japanese authorities to decide
| Kionon wrote: |
| Try many claims about many contracts in many areas in regards to several prominent and not so prominent dispatch companies. Bureaucratic steps take time in any country, and Japan is more bureaucratic than many. If you're expecting records of overnight successes, this is unrealistic in the extreme. |
I don't expect the claims will be successful, that is the heart of my point. Without the claims being adjudicated to success, the tag of �illegal� is just a lot of hot air.
| Kionon wrote: |
| First off, as Glenski pointed out, most of us do not teach English as a Second Language... |
It is still one labor market to provide the teaching services, so who cares? Are you proposing two unions?
| Kionon wrote: |
| I'm quite adept at economics, and I am quite well versed in the history of the labor movement. I don't follow your claim that "supply and demand" somehow interferes with the ability of a union to function effectively in Japan... |
You are well written and I have no disrespect for you or your ability to understand economic theory. However, I think your emotional ties to union labor are clouding your view.
It requires a longer examination than can write on the fly right now, but it is all about low �barriers to entry� to enter the market place. For both the supply of teaching services and the demand for the services. In the ESL/EFL industry the barriers to supply teaching services are very low (in some parts of the industry backpackers on holiday still supply the service). On the demand side, students don't need a huge infrastructure to have their demand met. Some prefer to meet in a coffee shop or at home to take an English lesson. Online from a teacher who may or may not have any proper qualifications, may not even be in the same country. For good or bad, it is a growing trend.
Effective unions operate in industry with HIGH barriers to entry, ie. heavy industry with large capital outlays required to enter the market. Telecommunications or other utilities, auto workers, ship builders, etc. where big, expensive factories, faculties and equipment are required to produce a product to deliver to market. Service employees have low union membership for a reason. When they are unionized it is in segments of the industry with high barrier to entry (airlines, super large hotels, casinos that have huge capital outlay). Government service employes have high union membership where the barrier to supply government services is obviously high. Your average �mom and pop� can not set up a competing entity to supply government services. It is all about the "barriers to entry". Labor market and labor union economics 101 really.
Show me a country with a unionized ESL/EFL industry and I will show you a country where people are taking a lot of ESL lessons online, in backrooms and in coffee shops to avoid the higher costs, restrictions and encumbrances of meeting the demands of a union contract.
Just a tip of the iceberg of why a union has no chance of being effective. Maybe you want to put forward an argument of how a large, multinational, diverse and transient labor force (foreign teachers) are a natural to come together as a solitary labor force with common desires and preferences and the will to stick together to see them through?
I am just writing on the fly. I think you do have a historic sense of how labor unions work and grow. Maybe you can tell me how the ESL/EFL industry fits in ANY way with the history of successful and effective labor unions. I surly can not. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| tdu1510 wrote: |
| We can post and debate day and night, but until the industry is admonished, directed or otherwise compelled to act differently by a body that can enforce it, the ALTs are acting in a legal way. |
If that is your definition, so be it. I strongly disagree, but you have since decided not to discuss things with me anymore, so I will just bid you adieu, sayonara, and happy trails.
Let me leave you with a passing thought.
If I drove over the speed limit (clearly an illegal thing to do), but nobody caught me and took me to court or made me pay the proper fine, would my actions still be illegal or not? According to your logic, no. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Labor law is codified. It is already a matter of black and white.
Our conversation on the theory of organised labor and how it applies to a population such as that represented by ALTs is way off topic, and not likely to do much good for others on this board. We are straying into territory better left to academic journals on the subject of economics, labor practices, sociology, and perhaps even philosophy. And not to internet forums.
This will be my last post on the subject. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Just reading through this thread, this is what it looks like:
Kionon is wildly pro-union
Glenski makes a lot of sense (i.e. what is illegal IS illegal, it doesn't matter if you don't get caught [or more accurately, the people who see pretend not to, because there's nothing in it for them to help you])
tdu1510 probably manages a dispatch company (this is someone who has all of 11 posts and something like all but one of them are on this very thread). The argument that a union can't help people in ESL / EFL is just ridiculous. It's a teaching job. ALTs work in schools. The same as teachers. Are teacher's unions useless? No. Not at all. People who argue against dispatch companies aren't 'against ALTs', they're against treating them in a manner that would be slapped down in ten seconds by teachers unions if it were tried with Japanese teachers.
The idea that being an ALT is a temp job is a big problem in this country. There are lots of people who have been doing it for years. And the other thread with about the EdD versus the PhD shows that tonnes of people with masters degrees are in this country looking for work. Do they all want to work at universities because of the prestige, or is it just being able to get out of the conditions and what they see at high schools. People may argue it's to teach higher levels of English, but the level of English and maturity of most Japanese university students is at most on par with high schoolers in other countries. Anyway, all these people with masters degrees who aren't working for universities, must be working for someone- and that often means that they're ALTs, and possibly/probably working for a dispatch company- for which they will very likely get zilch for having all this experience and education. They very likely have more education than the majority of teachers in their schools (or at least the same- and far more experience than the first-year teachers at their schools who have done a two-week practicum in which they observed and then taught a single class) and yet are treated as rank amateurs based on their job title, regardless of what their job actually entails. |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The idea that being an ALT is a temp job is a big problem in this country. |
I wonder if this really extends to whether it is English as a temp language being the problem in this country. How serious is English really taken in Japan, simply a business opportunity that has snowballed, or a real educational necessity for its citizens and future generations ?
| Quote: |
| There are lots of people who have been doing it for years. And the other thread with about the EdD versus the PhD shows that tonnes of people with masters degrees are in this country looking for work. Do they all want to work at universities because of the prestige, or is it just being able to get out of the conditions and what they see at high schools. People may argue it's to teach higher levels of English, but the level of English and maturity of most Japanese university students is at most on par with high schoolers in other countries. Anyway, all these people with masters degrees who aren't working for universities, must be working for someone- and that often means that they're ALTs, and possibly/probably working for a dispatch company- for which they will very likely get zilch for having all this experience and education. They very likely have more education than the majority of teachers in their schools (or at least the same- and far more experience than the first-year teachers at their schools who have done a two-week practicum in which they observed and then taught a single class) and yet are treated as rank amateurs based on their job title, regardless of what their job actually entails. |
And thus, at all levels, whether entry teaching jobs to Uni posts, is there a difference to the locals when you tell them you are an "English Teacher" ? Because for the most part, on their part, all the qualifications that is needed is to be able to speak native English. The streets a lined with degree holders of every kind. Man, if I was an English teacher 100 years ago, I would be teaching the crown prince personally. |
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tdu1510
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| tdu1510 probably manages a dispatch company (this is someone who has all of 11 posts and something like all but one of them are on this very thread)... |
I read this with amusement as I sit here on holiday in the Philippines. I am middle aged and made my nest egg outside of teaching. While not wealthy, I don't need to work regularly to support myself. Not only do I not �manage a dispatch company� I have not worked a job teaching in over a year. I am ready to search for a job again and I became active in this forum. FYI, my 11 posts are spread over 5 diffrent threads.
| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| ...The argument that a union can't help people in ESL / EFL is just ridiculous... |
Who has made an argument that a union can't help people? The idea that a union would be beneficial is the ONE thing that has been clearly agreed upon in this thread. My argument is more along the lines that it is ridiculous to think a union of foreign teachers would thrive and be able to be an effective agent of change to cure the problems that you go on to write about.
This is a Japan �Job Discussion� forum. Like it or not, dispatch companies employ a significant number of teachers. It is best to discuss them in real terms, not with silly, inaccurate (by the standard on the ground today) and confusing labels like �illegal�.
If they change the rules (and enforce them!) on the Autobahn driving at high speed will be illegal, as a practical matter German motorists are zipping down the highway today without a worry. If Japanese authorities make a significant ruling against how ALT contracts are administered, then we would have something to talk about. However on that score to quote Kionon �If you're expecting records of overnight successes, this is unrealistic in the extreme.� I say move on to what IS realistic. |
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robertokun
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| What's illegal in the dispatch game? Nothing. As long as there's no consequence for their actions, dispatch companies can do whatever they want. Is there any evidence to-date of any dispatch company being punished for breaking the law? |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| robertokun wrote: |
| What's illegal in the dispatch game? Nothing. As long as there's no consequence for their actions, dispatch companies can do whatever they want. Is there any evidence to-date of any dispatch company being punished for breaking the law? |
Exactly, this is why I made the post.
If dispatch companies like Westgate, Interact, etc., are illegal, then why do they operate so openly with impunity?
I've done a lot of reading on Gaijinpot, here and and on the Internet where people claim they are illegal, but they are doing booming business with universities and high schools in Japan. |
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Inflames
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 486
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
If dispatch companies like Westgate, Interact, etc., are illegal, then why do they operate so openly with impunity? |
The way Interac and Westgate operate is not inherently illegal. Interac actually has some contracts that are legal haken contracts (I was told that 95% of those contracts were in Osaka because of the Osaka BoE's orders).
Then there's the fact that labor law enforcement in this country is basically non-existent. If you want something done, you have to go and sue them. As an example, there's G. Com's 40,000 yen attendance "bonus." They were sued by several people (that's just who I personally know!) and settled because they knew it was illegal. Nobody from the government did a thing (aside from saying that it was illegal). Most people aren't here long enough to be affected by the 3 year rule (and if they spoke enough Japanese to go to court they'd have moved on to a different job) and people don't bother with not taking orders from the school staff.
BTW in Chiba a BoE was recently found in violation of the law and ordered to either directly hire ALTs or stop employing them for 3 months. The BoE decided to wait and all those employees who didn't mind the illegalities wound up out of work for at least 3 months. |
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Kionon
Joined: 12 Apr 2008
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan and Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Inflames wrote: |
| Shimokitazawa wrote: |
If dispatch companies like Westgate, Interact, etc., are illegal, then why do they operate so openly with impunity? |
The way Interac and Westgate operate is not inherently illegal. Interac actually has some contracts that are legal haken contracts (I was told that 95% of those contracts were in Osaka because of the Osaka BoE's orders). |
I essentially said this. As I said, Osaka, at the prefectural level, appears to be taking this quite seriously. Admonishing municipal BoEs, nullifying illegal contracts, and fining dispatch companies.
In very few countries, even Western countries with strong organised labor movements, are companies ever actually shut down. You can't "arrest" a company. You can't really put it on criminal trial and throw the book at it. You can't sentence it to community service or jail time. The most you can do, usually, is fine a company or force the resignation of certain executives.
| Quote: |
Then there's the fact that labor law enforcement in this country is basically non-existent. If you want something done, you have to go and sue them. As an example, there's G. Com's 40,000 yen attendance "bonus." They were sued by several people (that's just who I personally know!) and settled because they knew it was illegal. Nobody from the government did a thing (aside from saying that it was illegal). Most people aren't here long enough to be affected by the 3 year rule (and if they spoke enough Japanese to go to court they'd have moved on to a different job) and people don't bother with not taking orders from the school staff.
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This actually true in a number of countries. Labor unions give people that ability.
I recognise that most people do not come to Japan for three years, let alone more. However, just because I recognise it doesn't mean I understand it. I guess it's because I didn't just come to Japan after graduating, leaving most of my belongings at home, and essentially just trying to find a way to continue living the life I had in university. Nothing wrong with that, until it interferes with the job, then the attitude annoys me.
I full on relocated to Japan. The vast majority of my belongings are with me in the same apartment I have lived in for over two years. Aside from getting a very specific job, I would not leave Japan, or even leave the area I live in now. The cost of moving to any country, let alone the United States, would be fairly prohibitive. I would have to be in pretty dire straits or assured of a very specific position to leave Japan. I'm settled.
Which was honestly the whole point. I spent a few years after graduation running around the US, trying different jobs, in different states, some of them quite unusual, one even fairly glamorous, but none steady or well-paying, and then I went to Korea, which was more transience... and I just got tired of it. I don't want to move. I don't really want to change jobs. I just want a normal 9-5 job (well, 8:30-4:30), Monday through Friday, with a normal salary, with normal benefits, a few weeks vacation (though I won't turn down more) each year, with perhaps a very minor raise each year.
Call me boring, but that's what I want. I just need to make sure I've found it. And that can take work of its own.
| Quote: |
| BTW in Chiba a BoE was recently found in violation of the law and ordered to either directly hire ALTs or stop employing them for 3 months. The BoE decided to wait and all those employees who didn't mind the illegalities wound up out of work for at least 3 months. |
See, that's a problem. It shouldn't be direct hire OR wait three months. It should be direct hire OR stop using ALTs. Waiting three months is an abuse of the system, and not what it was designed for. The goal is to allow the BoE to find and direct hire more permanent replacements, not to allow the BoE to avoid ever hiring directly. |
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lost devil
Joined: 14 May 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the details Kionon. After reading all the banter going back and forth I keep having the same thought. Have any of you thought that regardless of what we think as foreigners, we are living in Japan, and we are working in the Japanese system. Whether that system is right or wrong based on our home countries rules, laws, and ideals, it is the system we are involved in, and instead of searching for things that are "wrong" (whether legally or not), wouldn't it be more productive to search for ways to help the system change while continuing to offer at least the same level of service that ALTs and English teachers through out Japan are currently offering! |
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