|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
askiptochina
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 488
Location: Beijing
|
 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: |
| it would seem you had no legal status whatsoever with the original employer. So, why exactly did you complain? Rolling Eyes |
Ok, you want to take this to an undesired level, fine.
1. DEFINE "legal status", we got that?
2. I didn't complain, I was asking for people's opinion on commuting 2 hours, working 1 hour 3 times a day, with 4.5 hours of sitting around doing NOTHING. This totals 9.5 hours with only 3 hours of pay. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| askiptochina wrote: |
| 1. DEFINE "legal status", we got that? |
I'm assuming he/she means a signed contract detailing the requirements of your job with them. Since you were able to switch to another job so quickly and without any hassle suggests that no such contract exists. Most schools I have known or heard about expect their pound of flesh from FTs especially when the issue of termination comes into play.
| Quote: |
| 2. I didn't complain, I was asking for people's opinion on commuting 2 hours, working 1 hour 3 times a day, with 4.5 hours of sitting around doing NOTHING. This totals 9.5 hours with only 3 hours of pay. |
Ahh well. I did actually ask about this regarding your pay. As to whether it was based on a monthly wage or an amount fixed per hour. Your last comment above suggests it was more of an hourly pay rate rather than a fixed monthly rate. What you describe it more of a part-time job routine which begs the question was there an actual contract ever discussed, or whether this was a completely informal agreement. It puts me in mind of the times my school farmed me out to Kinders outside the school... I worked in my own free time, and got paid external to the school.. even if it ws organised by the school (which is illegal).
Personally I'm amazed you agreed to such a set up in the first place. Thats my opinion... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
askiptochina
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 488
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
The point of this thread was to get feedback on what people thought about working/being "occupied" 9.5 hours (transportation, teaching, and waiting) and only getting paid for 3 of them.
Additional points (secondary):
1) If having the contract is important in your opinion, then that is YOUR opinion. That was what I was asking for. I was NOT asking about technicalities of a contract.
2) I farmed myself out. I wanted to see what the north had to offer without tying myself to one location and one slave owner. In Korea, this happened, and sometimes it worked out well. I left the bad schools and taught for a year at a good one.
Also, what you can do is work until they change the parameters of your job. For example, my last job in Korea had 3 managers who left within a 6 months time. We got along well and they honored agreements we had. The 4th one came and she would not compensate me for time I spent as well. So, I left also.
3) I agree with the point about the school not being nice if you want to leave, but I don't conduct myself in a manner that will end up in a bitter separation. In this case there are OTHER native English teachers involved, so I posted to get people's opinions, NOT to defend a contract. I will be leaving with a mutual understanding it's not my school and I have no right to force my difference of opinion on the school or teachers. I voiced it, and now that it has been partly ignored or rejected, I am ready to move on. No one feels there was a "violation" but rather a misunderstanding of what this school wants.
They have theirs, I have mine. We are still whole, as if we were before a contract was signed.
3) For the record and to clarify, a contract SHOULD be signed outlining responsibilities of the teacher and compensation the school will provide the teacher.
4) A contract, signed or not would not address the questions I had because I have no interest in suing anyone. I prefer to settle things amicably without a third party who has a bigger club. After 7 years in Asia, it has worked, so I am not going to "fix" it. I thank you all for your feedback.
5) I will be busy today turning this lemon into lemonade, so I might not be commenting much about this.
6) If you have something constructive to say, I will read it and take it into consideration. However, this thread was not started to promote illegal activities, talk about legalities, or discuss contract terms.
Last edited by askiptochina on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| askiptochina wrote: |
| The point of this thread was to get feedback on what people thought about working/being "occupied" 9.5 hours (transportation, teaching, and waiting) and only getting paid for 3 of them. |
it's totally unacceptable. wasting a couple of hours a week on a commute without compensation is normal and acceptable. but when the number of hours spent waiting or going from one job to the next outnumber the hours spent in the classroom, then the employer needs a serious lesson on management.
unfortunately most people who end up being farmed out in this way only find out about when it happens. This is one of the things schools/recruiters hide from FTs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
askiptochina
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 488
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Could someone translate for me, I am not getting through to brookes and I am not going to expend any more energy on this.
I have explained the situation, asked for OPINIONS, and am tired of sniping demands which have nothing to do with the intent of my original post.
1. What do you think about taking a bus and then a taxi to school an hour away, teaching 1 hour there, waiting 1 hour there until the next class, and sometimes 3 hours, with a final hour commute back home at the end of the day which amounts to 9.5 hours and only 3 hours of pay?
Example replies:
A) I think it stinks, I would never do that. 
B) I love it, you get so much variety. 
C) Well, let's see here, I don't want to voice my opinion, so how about I ask you questions and not give an opinion. I know, if I ask about the contract then we can debate about the contract and you will never get my true opinion on your question. A question answered with a question, got to love them.  
If you are more prone to replying like C, maybe you should start your own thread. I am simply looking for A and B type replies.
Last edited by askiptochina on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
askiptochina
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 488
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| unfortunately most people who end up being farmed out in this way only find out about when it happens. |
So true.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| i've done it myself. i had a job where i had to travel a lot (usually to other towns) and when the weather was bad (monsoon season) it was not fun. I knew what i was getting into, the commuting (about a 0.5:1 ratio, travel/class time) wasn't hidden from me in my case, but I'd advise anyone else to forget about jobs that involve a lot of travel, unless the money is very good (and in my case it was only average). I lasted six months before I quit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sinobear
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 1269
Location: Purgatory
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
brookesdara:
NO ONE in China, foreigner nor Chinese, owns their own "house" in China. The right to "ownership" is set at 70 years and that all depends on the city's plan for further development. Interesting to note that after only two years you've become such an expert in Chinese law.
Do Enjoy! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| brookesdara wrote: |
| I'd also say that the vast majority of jobs, in say, the U.S. do not decide to overpay me because of the 2-5+ hour per day (round trip) commute that many, MANY workers are subject to. |
those US workers make a conscious decision to live where they live and they do the commute voluntarily. This isn't true of many esl teachers who are lured into a job thinking they'll be working in one static location and end up being farmed out all over the county.
| brookesdara wrote: |
| I would like to think most smart, prepared people would ask simple questions before signing a contract, such as, how long will it take me to get to work, who pays for transportation, and what are you paying me for. |
no matter how smart you think you are, and no matter how many questions you ask, there is always the unexpected. Whenever I change jobs I kept thinking that the problems in the preceding job could never be repeated because I knew what to expect and I thought I was prepared. Yet at the new workplace, new surprises can be in store that you never anticipated. Posters on here shouldn't come off so high and mighty, because one day it may happen to you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| askiptochina wrote: |
| The point of this thread was to get feedback on what people thought about working/being "occupied" 9.5 hours (transportation, teaching, and waiting) and only getting paid for 3 of them. |
Maybe so, but your posts tend to ask for quite a bit more than that.
| Quote: |
| 1) If having the contract is important in your opinion, then that is YOUR opinion. That was what I was asking for. I was NOT asking about technicalities of a contract. |
Having a contract is necessary in my eyes both for my own reference and also the schools. I have worked for 4 employers in China. 1 school, and 3 times as a business consultant. A contract was necessary to define the role I (and they) were to play.
If you don't get a contract, you can't really complain about awkward working hours or only working short periods of time with long waiting times. You've left yourself completely open. By choice. Playing the lottery with employers and their desire to "honor" voiced agreements.
Note: From this point on, I'm assuming you had no contract. You never say you had, and the manner of your posts suggest that you didn't.
| Quote: |
| 3) I agree with the point about the school not being nice if you want to leave, but I don't conduct myself in a manner that will end up in a bitter separation. |
Actually I said that most schools wanted their pound of flesh when termination of the contract arises, nothing about the school not being nice.
| Quote: |
| In this case there are OTHER native English teachers involved, so I posted to get people's opinions, NOT to defend a contract. I will be leaving with a mutual understanding it's not my school and I have no right to force my difference of opinion on the school or teachers. I voiced it, and now that it has been partly ignored or rejected, I am ready to move on. No one feels there was a "violation" but rather a misunderstanding of what this school wants. |
Actually you said earlier that the other FTs hadn't a problem with the set up. So, this is about you, not them.
| Quote: |
| They have theirs, I have mine. We are still whole, as if we were before a contract was signed. |
huh? Seriously. Whole what?
Lets get this straight... 1) Did you have a contract with the school? and 2) Do the other FTs in the school, have contracts with the school? 3) And lastly are there any differences in the terms/roles of the other FTs in the school versus the role/terms of your employment?
| Quote: |
| 4) A contract, signed or not would not address the questions I had because I have no interest in suing anyone. I prefer to settle things amicably without a third party who has a bigger club. After 7 years in Asia, it has worked, so I am not going to "fix" it. I thank you all for your feedback. |
In 14 years of employment I have had bad breakups with employers.. I have never sued anyone. A contract has never been a way of suing anybody. It has always been a way of determining my role in the business, and tools to mitigate any conflicts.
| Quote: |
| 6) If you have something constructive to say, I will read it and take it into consideration. However, this thread was not started to promote illegal activities, talk about legalities, or discuss contract terms. |
Seriously, I find that quite offensive.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| askiptochina wrote: |
| 1. What do you think about taking a bus and then a taxi to school an hour away, teaching 1 hour there, waiting 1 hour there until the next class, and sometimes 3 hours, with a final hour commute back home at the end of the day which amounts to 9.5 hours and only 3 hours of pay? |
You fail to include the point that you have no contract and are probably working off the grid. You're going to get shafted.
You keep posting up the above, and fail to take into account that you're not seeking normal employment. The manner of work that the majority of FTs here falls into certain area's but they're all likely to have a work permit, Contract, etc. Apparently, you don't. You don't have any degree of safety net.
| Quote: |
| If you are more prone to replying like C, maybe you should start your own thread. I am simply looking for A and B type replies. |
So you're a cherry picker. You're not actually looking for a discussion but rather some posts which support your viewpoint. Might as well create 30 profiles and reply positively to your thread.
I'm posting here because your thread is rather misleading, and I'm curious about what else you haven't mentioned. T |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gene
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 187
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| NO ONE in China, foreigner nor Chinese, owns their own "house" in China. The right to "ownership" is set at 70 years and that all depends on the city's plan for further development. Interesting to note that after only two years you've become such an expert in Chinese law. |
That land on which the house sits is leased and for that to be solid the owner must have the "big" deed....
I would say to document all travel and times and present this to your employer asking him to set up a schedule that doesn't require so much travel for so little class time.. for example.. I have to travel to another school as I am the councilor for their projects and first I take the 1 hour bus to get to my work unit...then I negotiated the payment of the cab to the school (RT) which cost around 45 RMB per trip for a total of 90 RMB paid out by me and invoiced by me to my employer. Next I scheduled 5 hours of project review classes so that I wouldn't have to return more than once a week. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
askiptochina
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 488
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| If you don't get a contract, you can't really complain about awkward working hours or only working short periods of time with long waiting times. You've left yourself completely open. By choice. Playing the lottery with employers and their desire to "honor" voiced agreements. |
I agree, and I am not complaining. How do you get the employer to put the hours in the contract? I have asked before, and I have never had schools (good or bad) willing to add exact schedule hours to the contract. Instead of addressing me, address the subject please. How do you get an employer to nail down the hours and put them in the contract? If I simply tell them, "Either put the exact hours in or I won't work at the school", then I never hear from the recruiter or school. I have tried it. So, what tactics or things can be done to secure a schedule?
| Quote: |
| Actually you said earlier that the other FTs hadn't a problem with the set up. So, this is about you, not them. |
So, what's your point? The current teachers here haven't had a problem, but the teachers in the past who have come and gone may have. There are also threads by one teacher who outlined a few things I experienced, and they took it to the extreme and went on a mission to hurt the school. I am not that vindictive, nor do I see it beneficial to take this route. It's not a match here, so I am getting teachers' opinions on this board that I will take into consideration when looking at my options for a 2nd job in China. I have over 7 years in Asia, but this has been my first school in China. I am willing to learn the ropes here. I don't see what your point is in relationship to me asking other teachers' opinions.
| Quote: |
| And lastly are there any differences in the terms/roles of the other FTs in the school versus the role/terms of your employment? |
How would I know? I would have to be aware of the contracts they signed and know what agreements they made. Are you really expecting me to know this, or are you throwing out red herrings for entertainment?
By the way, there is a FT who cleans the rooms and toilet stalls, as well as a FT who answers phones and talks to parents. I do none of that.
| Quote: |
| and tools to mitigate any conflicts |
That would in court. Between two people, a contract is nothing more than a promise from the past. I have never had an employer who did everything by the contract, nor have I. We adjust to the situation.
I worked in Kyoto, Japan for 3.5 years with the same school. We gave it a month test to see if it worked out, never signed anything, never talked about payment problems. It was the most general and open arrangement I have had. I stayed there for 3.5 years. The school before only lasted 3 months even though I signed a contract which outlined pay, living arrangements, general idea of the schedule (only one weekend day and 2 days off), etc...
So, just because you have a contract doesn't mean it's a security blanket for conflict. If there is conflict, then you still have to deal with it. It doesn't matter if the contract has a bad term in it or not. If it is bad, it is bad, it is bad. It doesn't become good because "oh it's in the contract you will do A B and C". Well, maybe since we changed as the business grew, the dynamics changed, and the contract doesn't reflect the needs of both the school and the teachers.
The way it is now, I can move on. I don't care if it is in China, out of China, in America, out of America. I am not tethering myself so that 9.5 hours amounts to 3 hours of pay. I am NOT doing that. You can do it, good luck.
| Quote: |
| you're not seeking normal employment. |
LOL, that is the most bizarre statement I have read. First, how do you know what I am seeking? Second, because my schedule isn't normal, I am leaving. If anything, I am seeking a normal schedule and this school is trying to brainwash me into doing a "variety" of classes. You need to get your facts straight before pulling punches.
| Quote: |
| You're not actually looking for a discussion |
Yes, your brain cells are now connecting. I am looking for your opinion on putting 9.5 hours in and only getting 3 hours of pay for it. I am not looking to debate, I am not going to disagree with you, and I won't see it as a wrong or right response.
| Quote: |
| your thread is rather misleading |
"What is your opinion" means I want to know YOUR opinion. I am not misleading anyone, I am simply not answering all your questions, as your questions are not your opinion. Is this finally getting through to the second layer? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| askiptochina wrote: |
| I agree, and I am not complaining. |
And yet you were. 3hrs pay in spite of commute and waiting time. Remember?
| Quote: |
| How do you get the employer to put the hours in the contract? I have asked before, and I have never had schools (good or bad) willing to add exact schedule hours to the contract. |
A contract usually shows the maximum teaching hours and administrative hours. You wish to have a schedule placed in the contract is unreasonable. IF you were a highly specialised and sought after individual, i could see it happening... but come on, you're teaching in china.
| Quote: |
Instead of addressing me, address the subject please.
|
Stop deflecting. I have addressed your points precisely. The simple fact is that is your decisions that have set the boundaries for your situation.
| Quote: |
| So, what's your point? The current teachers here haven't had a problem, but the teachers in the past who have come and gone may have. |
The point being that you're the one with the issue.... and referring to the other teachers as if they might have is silly.
| Quote: |
| How would I know? I would have to be aware of the contracts they signed and know what agreements they made. Are you really expecting me to know this, or are you throwing out red herrings for entertainment? |
Ask them? Seems an obvious thing to do in the circumstances. Haven't you ever socialised with your fellow workers? Usually with a few drinks on your day off, the FTs there the longest will talk about the way to get things done, and the best way to enjoy your stint in the school.
| Quote: |
| and tools to mitigate any conflicts |
| Quote: |
| That would in court. |
No it wouldn't. It would be before court. Hell, court doesn't even enter the arena for another dozen steps. Its called negotiation. I guarantee you that you won't enjoy China very much if you can't learn to negotiate with management. Any Chinese management.
| Quote: |
| The way it is now, I can move on. I don't care if it is in China, out of China, in America, out of America. I am not tethering myself so that 9.5 hours amounts to 3 hours of pay. I am NOT doing that. You can do it, good luck. |
I'm not doing it because i checked my contract, sought reasonable requirements, and stuck to them. But fine. You've moved on. Well done.
| Quote: |
| LOL, that is the most bizarre statement I have read. First, how do you know what I am seeking? Second, because my schedule isn't normal, I am leaving. If anything, I am seeking a normal schedule and this school is trying to brainwash me into doing a "variety" of classes. You need to get your facts straight before pulling punches. |
First of all, because of your previous posts.... as for normal, what you had isn't normal. Hence this discussion. As for pulling my punches, Whatever.
| Quote: |
| "What is your opinion" means I want to know YOUR opinion. I am not misleading anyone, I am simply not answering all your questions, as your questions are not your opinion. Is this finally getting through to the second layer? |
Ridiculous. Simply Ridiculous. Don't worry I won't bother answering your threads again. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
askiptochina
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 488
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| A contract usually shows the maximum teaching hours and administrative hours. You wish to have a schedule placed in the contract is unreasonable. IF you were a highly specialised and sought after individual, i could see it happening... but come on, you're teaching in china. |
Ok, and that's the point. You don't know your schedule. Sometimes, it works out, sometimes it doesn't. In this case it didn't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
