Job Discussion Forums

travelNteach · Joined: 14 Jul 2009 Posts: 222

me joking? surely u jest. the minimum wage in jkt is 1.2 million per month......... not the average, the minimum wage. this is for shop workers, cashiers, and the like. and they usually get bus or food money on top of that. the uneducated satpams at my apt get nearly 3million plus all the tips. look at expat.org and u will see most of the bules there are paying maids, nannys, and drivers 1.5 million and up. the average salary is much higher than that, especially for people with university degrees. i have plenty of friends in the mid-20's to early 30's making in excess of 10 million a month with benefits such as a free car. i forget what the average is, but maybe someone on this board can cite a source. i think it was in the region of 5 million. even if we took the minimum wage of 1.2 million, your salary was not 8 or 9 times more, unless u worked at EF pondon indah which does not give housing. not sure how good your indonesian language skills are, but chances are that your friends were more shocked at how little you earned compared to expats in other sectors. people in banking, mining, gas, business consultancy, law, etc earn more in one month than u did your entire year and they had a lot more benefits. most indonesias think that all bules earn us dollar salaries. think about it........ if u were earning 9x the average salary, how did anyone afford to send their children to your school?

Madame J · Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:26 pm Post subject:

The only Indonesians I met who expected me to be earning the same salary as other bules were generally the ones married to them. There's a slight possibility that the Indonesians surprised by the amount I earned were in fact shocked at how little it was, but I don't think that, "That's so much!", and "I wish I could earn that", were statements intended to mean anything different.

I'm not trying to mislead like an EF ad by saying that what I earned made me rich. What I earned allowed me to live a reasonable lifestyle. What most bules in Indo earn makes them filthy rich. What an EF teacher on four million earns makes them poor by Western standards, but certainly an awful lot of Indos wouldn't consider them so.

travelNteach · Joined: 14 Jul 2009 Posts: 222

i wonder who u were hanging out with. who do u think own all these house, rukos, business, and cars?

but i do have to give you credit, reasonable is a much better adjective than comfortable. although i think frugal would be more appropriate. the only thing that makes the ef wage livable is the fact that u dont need to pay rent or furnish the place. so all of your salary is expendable. could u imagine if u had to pay rent up front? purchase bedroom furniture? tv, kitchen utensils, living room set, refridgerator??? never happen on an EF salary. i think that is why people come here and dont feel like they are struggling. they dont have car payments to make or insurance to pay. basically they have stripped down their liabilities to the bare minimum and feel that they are in a more comfortable. also at the end of their contract, they get the second half of their airfare as well as last month salary and their 13th month bonus. so they walk out with what feels to be a fair chunk of change. but in reality, i can save more than that in a year working in my home country.

if u are happy working at that salary, thats wonderful. more power to you. i just think it is misleading and u do a disservice to newbies and indo people by claiming that everyone here is so poor. that comes straight from the EF handbook. i have been here 15 years and can tell u that no EF teacher is making 8/9 times the average indonesian income. when i start seeing EF teachers opening up their own language schools, buying houses, and driving new cars, then i will begin to believe it. most teachers at the end of their contract leave with a suitcase of clothes, maybe 2000 dollars, and the most priceless memories that anyone could ever hope to have

phis · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 250

But when you are assessing whether a salary is acceptable or not, shouldn't you be adding in what the cost of said housing, utilities, insurance, airfares, etc. would actually cost you if you had to pay for them yourself?. This total, albeit theoretical, amount would be a more realistic assessment of your actual Indonesian 'salary'.

Let's face it... if all the 'household' expenses are being paid for you, what you are actually getting at the end of the month is 'pocket money'. It doesn't sound too bad when viewed like that, does it? When attempting to compare it with what Indonesians earn, don't forget that they do not have all the above mentioned things paid for them, so their salary has to cover all expenses...

BTW I don't work for EF or any other low-paying outfit, nor do I support low salaries; the higher the better as far as I am concerned! However, for newbies trying to assess whether to come here or not, you have to view the 'whole package' before deciding whether it is 'doable' or not.

For example, a school is definitely a 'non-doable' prospect if it does not cover 'all' the above mentioned expenses but is still only offering an EF level salary. Whereas schools that offer 'everything' may be okay, depending on the area where you have to live, etc. etc. etc.....

travelNteach · Joined: 14 Jul 2009 Posts: 222

thats pretty much what i said, but merely pointing out that it is a menial job paying a menial salary..... same as back home. just that people working this jobs dont have to worry about other bills that they would have to pay back home. but they are not really getting ahead in life on an ef salary or any language mill salary for that matter, just seems less stressful at the time. ususally teachers have to pay utilities and portion of maid's salary

btw, wall street doesnt pay housing or other costs

phis · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 250

I don't view my job as 'menial'.... maybe that's why I get satisfaction from it!

BTW 'my school' does not pay housing or utility costs... but I am more than compensated by a decent salary, which is not the highest I have heard quoted on these threads, but which is more than adequate for my needs. I would be hard pushed to spend it all in a month, even after paying the regular bills, and treating myself to some not inconsiderable luxuries.

I have achieved this level of salary, not only through paper qualifications, but by proving that I am worth it, after years of working hard and gaining experience.

Why would someone waving a degree, but having no experience in the field, expect to start at the higher levels of the pay scale?.... And before you quote EF type schools at me once again; we all know that these schools prefer beginner teachers exactly for that reason.

aku_tonpa · Joined: 03 May 2004 Posts: 63

Madame J · Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject:

If it makes any difference, I'll admit that "8/9 times the average Indo salary" was an unintended exaggeration. You were right, I was indeed confusing the average salary with the miniumum wage (which I believe is under a million outside of Jakarta). However, from what I heard from all my local friends is that the average salary really isn't much. Two, maybe three million? Yes, lots of Indos have fancy cars, mansions, a whole fleet of staff. However, many more are desperately poor. It's just that as a relatively well off bule, one tends to frequent the kinds of restaurants/clubs/malls where the former while away their time and not actually get much exposure to the latter at a close distance.

I think it's really beginning to come down to a difference between the types of people we spent/spend time with. All my friends insisted two/three million was normal, and I saw no reason to dispute that. Perhaps I was misled.

travelNteach · Joined: 14 Jul 2009 Posts: 222

@ phis: u dont work at a language mill do u? ef=mcdonalds. until recently they would hire anyone....... people who hadnt graduated high school or college, no esl cert, no experience, non native speakers......... no education, skills or experience is a menail job. and they pay the lowest salaries, again menial wages. it is not only ef, but several other language schools could be classified as this. are there some great people there? of course. can the job be enjoyable? absolutely. as with any job, the management, students, and coworkers can have a great impact on job satisifaction. we are both qualified, experience and have jobs that pay us wads of money. we have paid our dues and definately deserve more money than some new graduate that has no experience and definately a lot more than someone with teaching qualifications. not sure why u keep taking issue with what i write when we are basically saying the same things.

MadamJ i agree, time to put the subject to bed. getting too confusing comparing wages in and out of jkt. if 2/3 million qualifies as middle class in your old city that is great.

i hang out with all people. i have friends that drive have new cars and have several houses and have more money than i can ever hope of having. a couple of weeks ago i went to a wedding in a slum next to the area where they gather all the plasic and recyclable materials that the people walking the streets pick up. the floor was bare earth covered with a sheet and the walls were made of bamboo. it was about 3m2. i am humbled at how much happiness and joy these people had in such adverse conditions. they show me what is truly important in life and the type of personality and characteristics that i should strive to achieve. never once have they asked me for money. it also reminds me to be grateful for all the things that i do have and that i really need to try harder at giving back to the community in a meaningful way.

phis · Joined: 10 Mar 2003 Posts: 250

@ TnT:

Re: EF type schools - that's exactly what I said. I'm not taking issue with you about that. Honestly! My apologies if it came over that way.

travelNteach · Joined: 14 Jul 2009 Posts: 222

@phis: no worries. i usually agree with what u write and respect your take on things.

Bule_Gila · Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:14 am Post subject:

This is a really good discussion.

As for Indonesia, there is a slim line that call themselves middle class here, with a majority being lower class income households.

What you will find, in most cases, is that the owners of the big houses, cars, etc belong to the upper class. Middle class Indonesians own these things as well but there is a difference. that difference being that the upper class most likely paid in full for their house and cars, while the middle class are paying off bank and credit loans that made it possible for them to buy a house and car.

In my opinion, the only Bules here who can rank themselves with those who are upper class are those who work in the Oil and coal industries. Bules working for private ESL institutions make about slightly more than the middle class Indonesians.

I am sure that if it were as easy for Bules to obtain bank loans or credit, we would see much more Bule ESL teachers owning houses and driving around in cars as well.

Durian Tango · Joined: 05 Nov 2010 Posts: 65 Location: HCMC

I like the discussion on salaries because it shows how tricky it is to nail down what a good salary for Indonesia is for an English teacher.

When my girlfriend (English) first came to Indonesia, she worked at an EF in Palembang and made 3 million a month but had housing paid for. She loved the experience and stayed for 2 years. She wasn't worried about the money, she just wanted a good school and a fun Indonesian experience. She got both.

She later moved to Jakarta and got a job teaching for 9 million a year (not EF). Again, good school, good Indonesian experiences and because she worked hard and was an excellent teacher, quickly got raises and perks.

Like Phis said 'I have achieved this level of salary, not only through paper qualifications, but by proving that I am worth it, after years of working hard and gaining experience.

That quote says it all to me.

Yes, perhaps the starting salaries for many schools aren't that great (though many salaries posted are for entry level teachers and those with solid CVs will get paid more) but for those of us like myself, who started teaching a number of years ago, worked hard, love teaching and proved to be professionals in our field, we went from those starting salaries (and scrubbing our own clothes) to now earning salaries which provide for a comfortable living (somebody else scrubbing our clothes).

I reiterate a previous point I made which is to say that no one is going to get rich teaching English in Indonesia - but you'll be hard pressed to have a more incredible time in any other country as you can in Indonesia. If you want to get rich then perhaps teaching English in Indonesia is not the best choice. Nothing says you can't live and work here though and still have a good life.

travelNteach · Joined: 14 Jul 2009 Posts: 222

very well said BG and DT.

bules can get loans for cars and apartments, but it really difficult. car loans come in 1,2, and 3 year repayment periods. even at 3 years, u need to make a downpayment of 15-20% and monthly payments will be in the 4 million range. full coverage insurance is factored into the payment for the term of the loan. pretty hard on esl salary. the real cheap apts in jkt are available on monthly installments of just under 10 millon per month for 5 years. these loans are normally carried by the developer. it is much harder even for indonesians to get mortages thru the banks as the mortgage industry is still in its infancy, much like credit cards. i think the longest term available is 10 years with a 20% downpayment. the interest rate is also very high (over 20%) and compounded in a strange way, resulting in higher monthly payments. while i do know some bules that own houses and apartments and new cars, most work at international schools and are married to indonesian women.

Bule_Gila · Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:31 am Post subject:

Well said TravelNTeach

Having a wife or spouse that is Indonesian helps a lot here. My wife was able to secure a payment plan for our motor bikes and in the coming months, she will apply for a loan to build a house here.

I think that the reason Bules have a real hard time getting loans is because of the nature of the system here. Most bules are here on a 1 year KITAS, with no way of guaranteeing the Bank that they will be here long enough to pay off the loan.

You also make another valid point TravelNteach. the monthly payments on such loans, combined with the interest rates makes it almost impossible for the average ESL expat teacher to pay off. in most cases, Rp 4 million a month is equal to half of a teachers salary (1/3 of my salary).