Job Discussion Forums

[mnguy29]

Yes, I never got one and I have been teaching in China for almost three years now. I did have teaching experience in USA and a BS degree. You could also check out Guangzhou for much nicer weather. I have heard they always are in need of teachers.

[PYT]

Yeah a celta is a bit pricy, which pushes me to consider some of your guy's advice about just getting a cheap online TEFL.

Nevertheless, I actually might stay 2 years in China if I really like my experience (grad school can always wait)... so there is a possibility that it won't be a super quick trip.

However, my main reasoning behind choosing a CELTA is simply because I am worried about my teaching ability. I really want to do a good job teaching (or even just a decent job). Also, there is no way an irrelevant degree in biology and limited experience as an ESL tutor can prepare me to teach a large class. 4-weeks training isn't a lot but I want to at least know something when I first walk into the classroom.

As an Asian-American... I will probably need to get a TEFL in order to give myself a better chance in the ESL job market. Going in without a TEFL, I feel, will severely limit my options. Therefore, now it is more of a question of getting an online TEFL vs a discount TEFL in-class course vs a reputable TEFL course/CELTA (for the extra price).

Obviously, If I do an online TEFL, it is simply for the piece of paper and I would probably pay a dirt cheap price for it. Furthermore, like some of what you guys say, it will be just as effective as a CELTA in terms of job prospects. I could just go this route, save money and take a leap teaching in china. That would be perfectly fine. I feel like a discount in-class TEFL course would be a poor investment in comparison to a CELTA or online course. Most discount courses I've seen around my area are about $1000 and have poor reviews. I have visited some of the schools and while things were alright, I wasn't entirely impressed with what I saw (not 120 hrs or in-class teaching supervised by other students rather than instructors). One school owner even offered to give me a free certificate in exchange for a 100 hr internship (doing data entry, with no need to take the course in order to get the certificate). As a result, $1000 spent on a discount course (although it does have value and can teach many things) doesn't seem all that great of a bargain for what you pay. It seems more logical to just choose between a cheap online TEFL/weekend course vs a reputable TEFL course/CELTA.

I have scouted 3 reputable TEFL courses in the area. One being a CELTA and two others at large university (good programs at top 50 colleges... 120 hr courses and supervised teaching practice with qualified instructors). I think any of these courses would be of equal or similar caliber. However, they all cost $2400 and it simply makes sense choosing the CELTA for the name brand (I am lucky that the school is only a 15 min commute away).

Therefore, now it is just a question of getting a CELTA vs an online TEFL certificate. This is what I am debating now. It really comes down on if the CELTA really does make a big difference in teaching ability/experience (for China). Perhaps I would do just as decent (or medicore) of a job and have the same experience whether or not I had training. Furthermore, teaching english in China is slightly different from the way it is taught in a CELTA course. As a result, many of the things I learn may not be even applicable. If a CELTA gives me a slight %15 boost in my ability to teach in China, yeah it is over-rated and I wouldn't want to go through with it. In fact, if I am staying there for 1-2 years. So like some of you guys said, why even bother? Why get a fancy smancy CELTA? However, if a CELTA course can give me a much more satisfying teaching experience in which I felt competent and useful, I would definitely have strong reason to choose that option. I know a lot of this sounds naive. However, this was the outline of my thought process between deciding to have an online certificate vs a discount in class course vs a CELTA.

I am still researching and thinking about the two paths. There are a great deal of old threads on this subject that I will probably go through until I make my final decision.

Definitely, thanks for the help and I appreciate the effort you guys have put in.


P.S. I am still wondering... when do you usually start applying for fall semester jobs?

P.S.S. Thanks for the link to Nanjing University of Finance & Economics. I know of an international student who went there for undergrad and he tells me it's pretty solid school.

[nickpellatt]

I dont think CELTA is over-rated, or over-priced either. I feel I improved a heck of a lot by taking a proper course, and I learnt 100x more than I did from my two online courses with i-i. My only regret is that I didnt take it prior to teaching, as I feel my first two years of teaching would have been more productive and more fufilling had I done the training first.

I have worked with perhaps 25 FTs in China, and more like 40-50 FTs in the UK (again teaching EFL).

Teachers with state certification for teaching subjects are normally quite popular in classes, and their class management is normally OK, but the content of their lessons is often a bit screwy, and their subject knowledge is also flakey. Some will admit that, some dont. Ive never seen or met a state qualified teacher who delivers top notch EFL classes, athough the structure of lesson might be good, its often content heavy.

Teachers with no related qualifications at all, can still be popular in class, but classroom management is worse than the above group (obviously). Lessons from unqualified teachers often have little purpose, and are too teacher centered, features lots of lecturing, and often little learning.

Teachers with CELTA/DELTA or equivalent related EFL qualifications (not online certs) normally have a decent enough handle on language awareness points that students raise...or know how to find said answers. They normally make classes quite student centered with less lecturing/teacher talk time. They are normally capable of delivering half decent EFL lessons with target language or targeting specific skills.

Of course, this is subjective to my experience and my colleagues. And this doesnt take into account the bad apples in every barrel. I dont believe anyone, even semi-serious about teaching, wouldnt improve 50% with the benefit of a CELTA etc.

Im going to add a footnote to say that these course arent the Holy Grail, they are only basic entry level courses but it is significant that many employers count pre-CELTA experience as no experience at all.

I also add a note to say that I am not a great, oracle of knowledge, type teacher myself. I am fairly serious about teaching though, and I do honestly feel that my performance as a teacher is far far greater than it was prior to my course. I do expect a bit of flak over this post, but Ill stand by it as it has been true for my experience of EFL.

If I was employing (which I dont) I would be more confident with a CELTA graduate than I would be with a UK certified History teacher, or a non-qualified/unrelated qualifications person.

[Non Sequitur]

As a former DTA, I would hire someone with only an ESL qual over someone with only a degree any day.
The attitude 'I've got a degree, I speak English and I'm (insert nationality)' shows a lack of appreciation that your life and study skills need to be constantly updated. It also shows scant interest in the success of your students.
To have teachers with no ESL training ask mid-semester 'what's this "lesson plan" thing you guys keep talking about?' is a salutary experience.
The students aren't fooled. Last semester my in-class evaluations and the student feedback obtained by the school admin almost dovetailed.
Comments like ' Teacher A does not let us speak and talks all the time'. 'Teacher A only talks to the students in the front row'. 'Teacher A uses the class time to learn Chinese and not to teach us English'. 'Teacher A has no authority and let's students misbehave'. And the killer 'Teacher A should not teach us next semester'.

[nickpellatt]

Yeah, I always think that even though the CELTA etc is a short course, the person who takes it has invested both time and money in something very specific to EFL. Someone who has a degree (which takes more time and money) has probably taken this with a view to a career outside of EFL. So whilst the degree does show commitment, it doesnt show any to the EFL industry. (I have both BTW ... just mentioned that to show Im not favouring one over the other because of my own circumstances)

Im going to add again, that my post above is based only on my limited experience, and is a very general picture. Yes, some CELTA holders are crap, and yes, some totally unqualified teachers do great jobs. Generally though, I think its hard to find a poor teacher who hold EFL specific qualifications. However, I think its easy to find a poor teacher with no specific qualifications. I also believe 100% that any EFL teacher can improve from a recognised program of training like CELTA.

[Non Sequitur]

Right on Nick

[kev7161]

[Non Sequitur]

Good point Kev
I'll rephrase my comment 'given both had no experience I would choose the ESL qual over the degree qual person'
But then most good ESL quals requre completion of a practical section but I expect not in the big classes - 45-ish - we see in China

[Trifaro]

"...'Teacher A only talks to the students in the front row'..."

Perhaps the student who said this could have sat in the front row?

I'm sure there were probably seats available or they could have come to class early and sat in the front row.

In my opinion, student evaluations are worthless, but that is the system. If the kids like you, you get a good "grade".

This is why I advocate walking around the classroom and sticking your face in front of some shy lass and get her to talk. If you just stand upfront and banter with the eager students in the front, the shy ones in the back will complain.

Generally, in my classes of kids who couldn't even get into the best private college in the province, they say "No,No" when I approach. Usually followed by "My English is poor".

Either way, they are happy that I talked to them and then give me a good critique.

Walk around.

I vividly recall yelling answers out from the back row when I was in college. I guess Chinese people are different!!

[Non Sequitur]

Well, by definition the 'class' is the 'class' and that behoves the teacher to teach in that reality.
I'm not sure about the negative around student evaluation. As I mentioned, my DTA evaluation was almost the same as the students. The fundamental point was 'ESL trained or not' and the points I made were that ESL training or even the slightest interest in personal upskilling by the 'teachers' concerned would have made both their and the students' experience so much more enjoyable and productive.

[Beloved]

If you haven't gotten you TEFL cert yet I just took this online course http://teflbootcamp.com/ was a good course gave me the basics and more and I continue to keep in contact with my tutor even after the course is over. I originally only went for it because if I didn't like it I could get my money back .

[7969]

[Max of SF]

This posters concerns are akin to mine. However, I have a BA in English, a white face and not a shred of teaching experience. But I'm willing to make the effort to learn quickly, and I definetely don't want to fleece my students.

My goal is Kunming for this fall (2011) with Chengdu as a backup. And I'd ratehr avoid teaching little kids if possible; they sound like a pain and I don't rerally see myself as the nurturing type.

Thanks.