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the4th2001
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo
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 Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Okay, here's a question -- do the five working years out of the ten-year total have to be continuous, or is it okay if they are punctuated with stints on a student visa? |
I did a quick search and couldn't find anything suggesting that the 5 years need to be continuous, but you do need an appropriate working visa. In other words, part time work on a student visa isn't going to count towards that 5 years. My friends are proper, full time workers （正社員）at normal companies (IT firms, trade companies, banks, etc.) and they didn't/don't hop from one company to the next. Also, they went from student visa to working visa. So yeah, I can't give a 100% answer on that.
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| And do the five working years have to be on the same type of working visa? |
Switching from one type of working visa to another shouldn't be a problem. If your work is outside the scope of your visa, you would have to legally update it/switch to a new visa anyways.
「永住許可の要件としては、一般的に引き続き10年以上本邦に在留していることが求められるが、外交、社会、経済、文化等の分野において我が国への貢献が認められる者は当該在留実績について５年以上とされている。「我が国への貢献」が認められ５年以上の在留実績により永住許可が与えられた具体的・主要な事例を紹介する等により、永住許可要件の明確化を図る。」*
Basically what this is saying is that you have to contribute to society for 5+years whether it be economically, culturally, diplomatically, etc. What counts as contributing really depends on Immigration and how they're feeling. So again, as long as you're working and contributing, switching jobs and working visas shouldn't reset the clock.
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| Do you think that would be okay for PR continuity purposes? |
I wouldn't recommend jumping back and forth from student to working status. Just my feeling, but getting a working visa is going to be a lot harder than getting a student visa. Downgrading would be a big mistake.
Plus, you can technically study while on a working visa and if you have enough stamina, you could work a proper job (which would count towards the mandatory 5 years) and go to college/grad school at the same time. A Japanese friend of mine worked a deal out with her company and was able to switch around her work schedule to accommodate grad school classes. Whether or not you could do that would depend on your job at the time, but it is a possibility.
If you really want to fast track the process though, just get married.
*http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/tetuduki/zairyuu/eizyuu.html |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| the4th2001 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Okay, here's a question -- do the five working years out of the ten-year total have to be continuous, or is it okay if they are punctuated with stints on a student visa? |
I did a quick search and couldn't find anything suggesting that the 5 years need to be continuous, but you do need an appropriate working visa. In other words, part time work on a student visa isn't going to count towards that 5 years. My friends are proper, full time workers （正社員）at normal companies (IT firms, trade companies, banks, etc.) and they didn't/don't hop from one company to the next. Also, they went from student visa to working visa. So yeah, I can't give a 100% answer on that.
| Quote: |
| And do the five working years have to be on the same type of working visa? |
Switching from one type of working visa to another shouldn't be a problem. If your work is outside the scope of your visa, you would have to legally update it/switch to a new visa anyways.
「永住許可の要件としては、一般的に引き続き10年以上本邦に在留していることが求められるが、外交、社会、経済、文化等の分野において我が国への貢献が認められる者は当該在留実績について５年以上とされている。「我が国への貢献」が認められ５年以上の在留実績により永住許可が与えられた具体的・主要な事例を紹介する等により、永住許可要件の明確化を図る。」*
Basically what this is saying is that you have to contribute to society for 5+years whether it be economically, culturally, diplomatically, etc. What counts as contributing really depends on Immigration and how they're feeling. So again, as long as you're working and contributing, switching jobs and working visas shouldn't reset the clock.
| Quote: |
| Do you think that would be okay for PR continuity purposes? |
I wouldn't recommend jumping back and forth from student to working status. Just my feeling, but getting a working visa is going to be a lot harder than getting a student visa. Downgrading would be a big mistake.
Plus, you can technically study while on a working visa and if you have enough stamina, you could work a proper job (which would count towards the mandatory 5 years) and go to college/grad school at the same time. A Japanese friend of mine worked a deal out with her company and was able to switch around her work schedule to accommodate grad school classes. Whether or not you could do that would depend on your job at the time, but it is a possibility.
If you really want to fast track the process though, just get married.
*http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/tetuduki/zairyuu/eizyuu.html |
Thank you! That is really useful information. Thanks for going to all that trouble to type that up.
Now that I have a better concept of renewal requirements, PR requirements, and what passes as "continuity," I think I should try staying in Japan for a matter of months (either as a student or a WWOOF volunteer) and see if it's actually where I want to be. An objective assessment of whether a country is "worth it" or not cannot be made from mere tourist excursions -- I'll need to have a daily grind/routine to really know if Japan is a good place to live.
The visas for Japan are definitely harder and more restrictive right now than Korea's new F-2-7. Only if I spend five or six months in Japan will I really know if Japan's advantages are enough to outweigh the fairly restrictive visas currently available.
Thank you, the4th2001, Apsara, Glenski, and seklarwia, for helping me to better understand renewals and PR requirements. I guess I'll arrive in Japan in approximately four months on the Kaohsiung <-> Okinawa ferry and give Japan a go to see if I like it.  |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Just curious. Have you looked at the official immigration site on this?
http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/english/tetuduki/index.html
Under the second section (Resident procedure) there is a bunch of bullets, and the second one is Procedures for Permanent Residence. You can read cases on that next page, or click on one more link to see the only guidelines that immigration provides:
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# Legal requirements
(1) The person is of good conduct.
The person observes Japanese laws and his/her daily living as a resident does not invite any social criticism.
(2) The person has sufficient assets or ability to make an independent living.
The person does not financially depend on someone in the society in his daily life, and his/her assets or ability, etc. are assumed to continue to provide him/her with a stable base of livelihood into the future.
(3) The person�s permanent residence is regarded to be in accord with the interests of Japan.
1. In principle, the person has stayed in Japan for more than 10 years consecutively. It is also required that during his/her stay in Japan the person has had work permit or the status of residence for more than 5 years consecutively.
2. The person has been never sentenced to a fine or imprisonment. The person fulfills public duties such as tax payment.
3. The maximum period of stay allowed for the person with his/her current status of residence under Annexed Table 2 of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act is to be fully utilized.
4. There is no possibility that the person could do harm from the viewpoint of protection of public health.
※ The requirements (1) and (2) above do not apply to spouses and children of Japanese nationals, special permanent residents or permanent residents, and requirement (2) does not apply for those who have been recognized as refugees
# Special requirements for 10-year residence in principle
(1) The person is a spouse of a Japanese national, special permanent resident or permanent resident, and has been in a real marital relationship for more than 3 years consecutively and has stayed in Japan more than 1 year consecutively. Or, the person is a true child of a Japanese national, special permanent resident or permanent resident, and has stayed in Japan more than 1 year consecutively.
(2) The person has stayed in Japan for more than 5 years consecutively with the status of long term resident.
(3) The person has been recognized as a refugee, and has stayed in Japan for more than 5 years consecutively after recognition.
(4) The person has been recognized to have made a contribution to Japan in diplomatic, social, economic, cultural or other fields, and has stayed in Japan for more than 5 years.
※ Please see �Guidelines for Contribution to Japan.� |
Note that it says in principle you have to stay here 10 consecutive years. There are tons of exceptions. I wouldn't rely on them as any form of loophole, of course, but it's just one thing to keep in mind if you are on the cusp. Remember, these are guidelines not laws and Japan is a land of case-by-case situations.
If you want to leave to live in Korea with a Japanese work visa in hand for a year or 2, I don't know if that will count as part of your 10 years for PR in Japan. I don't even think immigration will tell you yes or no. Just make a commitment or not. That is tough, I know, but realize also that in 10 years time, you might find a spouse, and that would shorten the process. |
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Bread
Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| If you're here for 10 years, does that mean you don't really need that "contributed to Japanese culture" requirement? In the big list of PR examples that immigration posted, it's pretty clear that ALT and eikaiwa do not constitute a contribution to Japanese society. Is university teaching the ONLY English teaching job to qualify for PR, or is that requirement relaxed after 10 years? |
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the4th2001
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Bread wrote: |
| If you're here for 10 years, does that mean you don't really need that "contributed to Japanese culture" requirement? In the big list of PR examples that immigration posted, it's pretty clear that ALT and eikaiwa do not constitute a contribution to Japanese society. Is university teaching the ONLY English teaching job to qualify for PR, or is that requirement relaxed after 10 years? |
You have to contribute to society. Pay into shakai-hoken, ward/city taxes, regular taxes, plus have a job that jives with Immigration officials. Nearly all of my friends that have received PR aren't married and work in non-English related fields . . . and they're not westerners. For those of my friends that are working at eikawa schools (I can't comment on ALTs) and hold PR, they were married to Japanese with kids before applying. The fact that they had families probably played a large role in the application and acceptance process.
If you try to pick up PR without being married to a Japanese national, I hardly believe that the requirements will become relaxed after 10 years.
Actually, there's an interesting blog that focuses on naturalizing and has a decent comparison between PR, naturalizing, and which is easier to do.
http://www.turning-japanese.info/ (the entry is towards the bottom of the page)
Glenski probably has more information on PR and English teaching though. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| the4th2001 wrote: |
| Bread wrote: |
| If you're here for 10 years, does that mean you don't really need that "contributed to Japanese culture" requirement? In the big list of PR examples that immigration posted, it's pretty clear that ALT and eikaiwa do not constitute a contribution to Japanese society. Is university teaching the ONLY English teaching job to qualify for PR, or is that requirement relaxed after 10 years? |
You have to contribute to society. Pay into shakai-hoken, ward/city taxes, regular taxes, plus have a job that jives with Immigration officials. Nearly all of my friends that have received PR aren't married and work in non-English related fields . . . and they're not westerners. For those of my friends that are working at eikawa schools (I can't comment on ALTs) and hold PR, they were married to Japanese with kids before applying. The fact that they had families probably played a large role in the application and acceptance process.
If you try to pick up PR without being married to a Japanese national, I hardly believe that the requirements will become relaxed after 10 years.
Actually, there's an interesting blog that focuses on naturalizing and has a decent comparison between PR, naturalizing, and which is easier to do.
http://www.turning-japanese.info/ (the entry is towards the bottom of the page)
Glenski probably has more information on PR and English teaching though. |
Although ALT and eikaiwa not qualifying as "contribution to Japan" is unfortunate, ten years is plenty of time to gain an MA and move up to uni or move onto another job...
However, to be honest, Japan is looking too restrictive at this point... Perhaps I will reconsider when Japan eases its regulations, but I don't want to wait until I'm 35 to have the freedom to do what I want...
One more year in Korea, and I'll have an F-2-7 and be able to do basically whatever I want, within reason.
It'd take ten years of continuous residence to have a similar level of freedom in Japan... Unless I get married, something that does not interest me right now...
So I've got to wonder, "What's the point?"
Why not just live in Busan and take a budget ferry to Japan whenever I want?
They have ferries to Tsushima, Fukuoka, Kobe, Osaka, etc.
I guess my question at this point is "Why bust my butt at an eikaiwa 44 hours a week, always worry about the next renewal period, and put my intellectual pursuits on hold to live in Japan year-round when I can simply live as I please in neighboring Korea and visit Japan for as many as three months out of the year on a tourist landing permit?" |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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One answer for you, Rooster, is pension. To collect, you must have contributed 25 years without interruption. So, if you go to another country, then come back, you will have broken the chain.
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| Why bust my butt at an eikaiwa 44 hours a week, always worry about the next renewal period, and put my intellectual pursuits on hold to live in Japan year-round |
Another way to look at it is this: who really works 10 years only at eikaiwas? A few, but it's a mind-numbing job, and if you plan to be here forever, you should consider how to improve your education or skill set so that you can move on to more productive endeavors. |
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G Cthulhu
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
One answer for you, Rooster, is pension. To collect, you must have contributed 25 years without interruption. So, if you go to another country, then come back, you will have broken the chain.
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Not exactly. Once you have PR status (and you can get it after three years if you know how to do it) then you are entitled to the same benefits that nationals have viz social security totalization treaties. It's not a wide ranging option, but it's certainly more flexible than you describe. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| G Cthulhu wrote: |
| Once you have PR status (and you can get it after three years if you know how to do it) |
Please tell us how that would be. It must be a quite rare exception to the guidelines:
http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/english/tetuduki/zairyuu/guide_residence.html
| Quote: |
| then you are entitled to the same benefits that nationals have viz social security totalization treaties. It's not a wide ranging option, but it's certainly more flexible than you describe. |
Yes, if one's home country has a totalization agreement with Japan, you can get pension payments in less than 25 years, but you will still get only what you paid into the system, I believe.
To be honest, I don't know anyone who has taken advantage of the U.S.-Japan totalization treaty yet. It's only been around for 5 years or so. Nobody on these discussion forums has described their experiences with it so far. |
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rich45
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
I guess my question at this point is "Why bust my butt at an eikaiwa 44 hours a week, always worry about the next renewal period, and put my intellectual pursuits on hold to live in Japan year-round when I can simply live as I please in neighboring Korea and visit Japan for as many as three months out of the year on a tourist landing permit?" |
Rooster, you always used to be so anti-Korea, yet you are considering a longterm move back there? I made the move from Korea to Japan in August this year and I can tell you there is no comparison... |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| rich45 wrote: |
| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
I guess my question at this point is "Why bust my butt at an eikaiwa 44 hours a week, always worry about the next renewal period, and put my intellectual pursuits on hold to live in Japan year-round when I can simply live as I please in neighboring Korea and visit Japan for as many as three months out of the year on a tourist landing permit?" |
Rooster, you always used to be so anti-Korea, yet you are considering a longterm move back there? I made the move from Korea to Japan in August this year and I can tell you there is no comparison... |
Well, yes, you're correct. I did used to be very angry at Korea.
When I first moved back there in 2006, I was eager and ready to learn their language and culture. Within a week of landing, I was enrolled at Yonsei University Korean Language Institute (from which I later graduated in '08 ). I made many local friends, studied their history and culture, grew to love their food, etc.
Unfortunately, I started to grow disillusioned around late 2007 when I realized I would never be eligible for a permanent residency visa, no matter how hard I tried. Without a permanent residency visa, how was I supposed to set up any long-term, meaningful life in Korea?
Back in 2007, Korea's immigration system was very simple: if you had Korean blood, you would get instant permanent residency, regardless of qualifications. If you were white, forget it. Unless you were married to a Korean or had $500,000 to invest, you could kiss ever getting PR goodbye, even if you lived in the country for 50 years, had a PhD, and spoke fluent Korean.
In March of this year, however, the F-2-7 changed all that.
My opinion changed along with it.
The F-2-7 is an absolute godsend for foreigners living in Korea. It is available after only one year in the country, and after three years, it can be changed into permanent residency (F-5).
Therefore, my opinion on Korea has changed. They'll actually let me move there and lead a semi-normal life now, something that wasn't possible before. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Earlier in this thread, Rooster, you wrote:
However, if all things were equal, I'd still rather live in Japan than Korea.
So, if you got PR in Japan or the F-2-7 in Korea, that would be equal, right? Why the change of heart, if I may ask? You even said that if you got the Korean visa, you would be happy because you could visit Japan, but the top quote here says otherwise to me. Just curious. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Earlier in this thread, Rooster, you wrote:
However, if all things were equal, I'd still rather live in Japan than Korea.
So, if you got PR in Japan or the F-2-7 in Korea, that would be equal, right? Why the change of heart, if I may ask? You even said that if you got the Korean visa, you would be happy because you could visit Japan, but the top quote here says otherwise to me. Just curious. |
Okay. I'd be happy to explain.
If the visa situations were equal (or even close to equal), then yes, I'd pick Japan over Korea.
However, especially after reading the replies in this forum about the requirements to extend the Specialist in Humanities visa, I don't think the visa situations are equal.
I'm looking to settle down, buy a home, start some sort of career outside of EFL, learn the local language to a fluent level, have long-term friends, possessions that won't fit in a suitcase, become an expert on a given country, etc. These things require stability and the guarantee that I will not be refused a visa renewal. What if I bought a house, had a great career, and an awesome, rewarding life, etc. and then suddenly got rejected for a renewal? My life would be ruined...
As I see it right now, it seems like Specialist in Humanities visa renewals are fairly finicky, and I would be in for ten years of constant worry/stress/instability prior to PR. They set a floor of 200K yen per month for a renewal, and that leaves only a razor thin margin of 50K yen between standard eikaiwa wages (250K yen per month) and non-renewal (less than 200K yen per month). Therefore, I'd end up spending ten years in constant fear of dropping below 200K yen per month and not getting a renewal.
In Korea, on the other hand, I could get the F-2-7 in one year, and would basically be stable from there on out.
Therefore:
- I could achieve stability in Korea in just one year
- It would take ten years to achieve stability in Japan
For this reason, regardless of Japan being more developed/interesting, I have to choose Korea because I am unwilling to postpone stability until the age of 35...
However, I will keep my eye on Japan. If the visas there get better, or if the situation in Korea worsens, I will still consider Japan. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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You seem to have got the idea that it's hard to renew a Humanities visa, but that's not the case at all. They would not decline your visa renewal if you had a "rewarding career" as that implies you would have a job, unless you had been arrested for a pretty serious offense in the meantime.
As I mentioned, I have left the country for close to the year in the middle of a 3 year visa- I have also changed employers numerous times, been sponsored by tiny companies with no other foreign employees, not had all the documentation at renewal time, and applied for renewal with only a day to spare on different occasions, and never have Immigration hesitated to give me a further 3 years in the country- I was on my third 3-year visa when I switched to a spouse visa, with 2 one year visas prior to that.
Provided you do have a job, or several jobs equalling a full time salary, at visa renewal time (and you can renew up to 2 months in advance of the expiry date), it's pretty smooth sailing really. Have you heard of someone with a stable job being suddenly declined a visa renewal? I don't think anyone here mentioned that scenario, did they? |
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genesis315
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 116
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| great info Aspara |
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