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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Nagoyaguy wrote: |
| lisa111082 wrote: |
Hey, at least your Kyoto-sensei considers people human!
The Kyoto-sensei at one of my schools just refers to me as "ALT." He won't use my name or anything, and he does know it  |
The key is to not respond when he does that. Just ignore him. If questioned, just say; "oh, I thought he was talking to someone else. My name isn't "arutu". |
Wow. that may be some of the worst advice I've ever read. (And it's usuallry "Ei Eru Tii", not 'Aruto' (and sometimes the Japanese word for helper).
1. Japanese people often refer to others by title. It indicates that the reason why that person is approaching you is that they need to talk to you in your capacity as the person doing the job (and not as just a Hey! Let's talk! sort of a way). They do it with people above them. they do it with people below them.
2. Every work situation is different. How formal a school is is largely dependent on the management of that school. That means the principal and vice-principal.
Related to number 2:
In some schools, teachers get called sensei all the time. In others they are almost never called sensei except in front of the students.
Is an ALT a 'sensei'? That depends on the teachers' opinions. For some, you are because of what you do at the school. For others you aren't, because of what you do at the school. For some, you aren't because you don't have a teacher's licence in Japan (even if you do have one for another country). And for still others you aren't, simply because you aren't Japanese, so even if you DO happen to have a Japanese license, you STILL won't cut it as 'sensei' because a 'sensei' is a role model for the students, and they find it very hard to think of a foreign person as being a role-model for Japanese kids. |
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Nagoyaguy
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: Aichi, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:38 am Post subject: |
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A person who teaches in a class is a "sensei", regardless of licencing. There are myriad people who are called "sensei" who do not have a Japanese teaching licence. It is a term of respect. Particularly in front of students, EVERYONE should be referred to as "sensei".
"ALT" is like referring to someone as "kokugo" or "shakai" or "kocho". It is lazy, particularly if every other teacher is called "sensei".
I had a 'chat' with a teacher at my previous school about this. I was a full time staff member, taught my own classes, did my own evaluations, just like every other teacher. But in meetings, as she (a part time teacher) was reading off names, it was "last-name sensei" for all the Japanese staff and "first name san" for me. I found it completely disrespectful. I was older than her, had more teaching experience and more qualifications, and SHE refers to ME as "san"? Sorry, that aint gonna fly.
And it shouldnt. |
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Bread
Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:40 am Post subject: |
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The only people who have ever called me -san (or no suffix) instead of -sensei in front of students have been really old people who couldn't count to 10 in English. In that kind of situation, it's probably an intentional slight since you're vaguely threatening to them.
I cannot for the life of me get them to use my family name instead of my first name, though. Mr. Bob or Miss Julie (since about half of the kids use Mr./Mrs. instead of -sensei) just reminds me of Driving Miss Daisy more than anything else. When I introduced myself (in Japanese) at my last school, I said that I preferred to be called in the normal way by my family name, and I ended up with everyone calling me First name-sensei anyway except for the lady who served tea, who called me by my family name without a suffix (which is REALLY weird). |
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Nagoyaguy
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: Aichi, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Bread wrote: |
| I cannot for the life of me get them to use my family name instead of my first name, though. Mr. Bob or Miss Julie (since about half of the kids use Mr./Mrs. instead of -sensei) just reminds me of Driving Miss Daisy more than anything else. When I introduced myself (in Japanese) at my last school, I said that I preferred to be called in the normal way by my family name, and I ended up with everyone calling me First name-sensei anyway except for the lady who served tea, who called me by my family name without a suffix (which is REALLY weird). |
The best answer, again, is to return the favour. If you have politely requested to be addressed by your family name, that should be honored. A lot of Japanese will fall back on either;
a/"but foreigners like to use first names"
or
b/ "but foreign family names are hard to pronounce"
Both are crap.
You can always pretend "not to hear" when people address you incorrectly, and use it as a teaching moment.
Again, people who use your first name, do the same to them. Call them "Yumiko sensei" or "Daiki sensei" and see how THEY react. If they are uncomfortable, refer to a/ above 
Politeness rules do not depend on the nationality of the person speaking, they depend on the language being spoken. Japanese who refuse to use commonly accepted rules of etiquette, just because they are speaking to a gaijin, and in spite of being asked, are being deliberately condescending or rude and need to be told so. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Nagoyaguy wrote: |
"ALT" is like referring to someone as "kokugo" or "shakai" or "kocho". It is lazy, particularly if every other teacher is called "sensei". |
Except that people say usually say 'kocho' and 'kyoto' instead of those peoples' names. And it's not like saying kokugo etc. Kokugo etc are subject names. ALT isn't a subject name.
| Quote: |
I had a 'chat' with a teacher at my previous school about this. I was a full time staff member, taught my own classes, did my own evaluations, just like every other teacher. But in meetings, as she (a part time teacher) was reading off names, it was "last-name sensei" for all the Japanese staff and "first name san" for me. I found it completely disrespectful. I was older than her, had more teaching experience and more qualifications, and SHE refers to ME as "san"? Sorry, that aint gonna fly.
And it shouldnt. |
I didn't say that it was right. Just that is was. If you get mad, you get mad. But it's not going to change anything. Just remember that it probably isn't personal. Some people refer all foreigners as 'gaijin san'. There are even old people who claim to not be able to see non-Japanese people. I agree that it's bad. But again, there isn't anything we can really do to change it.
| Quote: |
a/"but foreigners like to use first names"
or
b/ "but foreign family names are hard to pronounce"
Both are crap. |
yep. |
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Nagoyaguy
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: Aichi, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Except that people say usually say 'kocho' and 'kyoto' instead of those peoples' names. And it's not like saying kokugo etc. Kokugo etc are subject names. ALT isn't a subject name.
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I see your point, but the reason is not the same.
"kocho" and "kyoto" are used to denote rank in the school, much the same way as "shacho" and "bucho" in a company setting. They show status above the rest of the staff. "ALT" is certainly not a rank, and certainly not a status above the rest of the staff.
IMHO the worst are those who say "ALT-san". They can't be arsed to even learn the ALT's name. I would be very tempted to refer back to them as "ongaku-san" or "eigo-san" in conversation...
As for being picky about how I am addressed, to me it IS personal. If I can make a few people think that maybe, just maybe, foreign people are not all the same, and perhaps deserve the same basic level of courtesy that Japanese expect, then I'd be happy. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| "ALT" is like referring to someone as "kokugo" or "shakai" or "kocho". It is lazy, particularly if every other teacher is called "sensei". |
LMAO! 
ALT=Assistant Language Teacher.  The word teacher is in the title!
| Quote: |
I had a 'chat' with a teacher at my previous school about this. I was a full time staff member, taught my own classes, did my own evaluations, just like every other teacher. But in meetings, as she (a part time teacher) was reading off names, it was "last-name sensei" for all the Japanese staff and "first name san" for me. I found it completely disrespectful. I was older than her, had more teaching experience and more qualifications, and SHE refers to ME as "san"? Sorry, that aint gonna fly.
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Was it a plesant chat? 
| Quote: |
| As for being picky about how I am addressed, to me it IS personal. If I can make a few people think that maybe, just maybe, foreign people are not all the same, and perhaps deserve the same basic level of courtesy that Japanese expect, then I'd be happy. |
They're problay saying, "I keep being told not all foreigners are douchebags but every ALT we've had has turned out to be one. Remember Randy-san? When we called him Brooks-sensei he went all 'This is English class mu'fus! When we talk English you call me by my first name mu'fus! Call me Randy, mmmmkay?'" |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| If we're honest a lot fo ALTs are a bit like those shiny new fangled powerpoint machines. No one knows how to use them and they prefer to stick them in the corner and hope they're not asked to demonstrate their prupose in an open campus class! |
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Nagoyaguy
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: Aichi, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Cool Teacher"]
| Quote: |
| "ALT" is like referring to someone as "kokugo" or "shakai" or "kocho". It is lazy, particularly if every other teacher is called "sensei". |
LMAO!
ALT=Assistant Language Teacher. The word teacher is in the title!
That's fine, but "teacher" isn't Japanese. When speaking Japanese, teachers are generally referred to as "sensei"- at least where I work. Are you seriously suggesting that "ALT" is used as a term showing respect?!?
My "chat" with the other teacher was pleasant, but direct. I simply told her that I preferred to be addressed the same way as all the other full time teachers, and also the way I addressed her, as "last name sensei". Actually, it was a funny situation because when she called me "first name san" a number of other teachers did a double-take- they were used to me being "last name sensei".
As for douchebag Randy, he can do or be who he wants. If he doesnt mind being referred to by first name, that's his affair. The point (that too many Japanese forget) is that the next ALT isn't Randy, and perhaps would like to be treated as such.
It is simple common courtesy to ask people how they would like to be addressed. It isn't culture or language specific. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:54 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Nagoyaguy"]
| Cool Teacher wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "ALT" is like referring to someone as "kokugo" or "shakai" or "kocho". It is lazy, particularly if every other teacher is called "sensei". |
LMAO!
ALT=Assistant Language Teacher. The word teacher is in the title!
That's fine, but "teacher" isn't Japanese. When speaking Japanese, teachers are generally referred to as "sensei"- at least where I work. Are you seriously suggesting that "ALT" is used as a term showing respect?!?
My "chat" with the other teacher was pleasant, but direct. I simply told her that I preferred to be addressed the same way as all the other full time teachers, and also the way I addressed her, as "last name sensei". Actually, it was a funny situation because when she called me "first name san" a number of other teachers did a double-take- they were used to me being "last name sensei".
As for douchebag Randy, he can do or be who he wants. If he doesnt mind being referred to by first name, that's his affair. The point (that too many Japanese forget) is that the next ALT isn't Randy, and perhaps would like to be treated as such.
It is simple common courtesy to ask people how they would like to be addressed. It isn't culture or language specific. |
Hi Nagoyaguy! 
I know its a pain but sometimes I think that much of the sheet that goes down is just because people are nervous about how to address those from another culture.
I get the impression that some of your advice is too aggressive and could be acted on badly and to the detriment of other teachers who come later.
I just think that coming up with more diplomatic methods of explaining why you should be addressed in such and such a way would benefit you and other teachers more than a hostile response.
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Nagoyaguy
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 425
Location: Aichi, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hi CT:
Uh, that...was.... my "diplomatic method" of dealing with recalcitrant coworkers...
To me, if I were nervous about how to address someone, I would be MORE polite than I thought was necessary, not less. I would also use the conventions of my native language, particularly if it is the one being spoken. I would also, God forbid, ASK the person how they wanted to be addressed instead of assuming. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Nagoyaguy wrote: |
| To me, if I were nervous about how to address someone, I would be MORE polite than I thought was necessary, not less. I would also use the conventions of my native language, particularly if it is the one being spoken. I would also, God forbid, ASK the person how they wanted to be addressed instead of assuming. |
I heard a story that when India and Pakistan were split up Jinnah who wanted a country for Muslims was asked by Ghandi, "But Jinnah, we are brothers. Why wouldn't you want to live with us?"
Jinnah said, "I wish it could be true but not everyone is Ghandi."
Or something like that. Different people behae ways you might not expect just because you think you would do X if you are nervous doesn't mean everyone will. Sometimes people who are nervous decide to bluster their way through things instead of act all humble.  |
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