Job Discussion Forums

[basiltherat]

FWIW, as a generalization, the males in this region 'grow' but in many cases, simply aren't capable of growing up.

i don't see much balance, responsibility and consideration amongst the majority of the middle-aged population.

one's approach to training has to accommodate this,i think.

best
basil

[scot47]

When I was teaching adult employees of the Airline in Jeddah I mentioned to my Saudi supervisor how immature these students were. "They will remain that way until they die. Most males here never grow up," was his laconic answer.

He was right. Many locals have a good insight into the harsh reality of life in the Kingdom of Humanity.

Avoidance of responsibility for anything seems to be an important part of the culture here.

[basiltherat]

[Cleopatra]

sainthood

[huh?]

Maybe I've just been lucky. I am not saying other posters are wrong, just that my experience has been very different.

Some years back, I worked at the Kuwait National Petroleum Company training center. The students were all adults, male and female, who needed to reach a certain level of English to get an increase in pay or a promotion, so they were fairly motivated. They all had full time jobs and families, so we never gave homework, but most of them studied. They were field workers, people in administration, firemen and bankers. They all took responsibility for their learning. They were friendly, polite, attentive - great to teach in other words. I would have stayed longer if Kuwait hadn't been invaded.

Now, years later, I am back in Kuwait, at the University. Maybe I just got lucky with the college I am in. Almost all the students do their homework and work hard. But then, there isn't a foundation program here. Students are studying physics, chemistry, finite math and biostats (all in English) at the same time they are taking academic reading and writing courses in English, so they are pretty motivated. They know that if they don't do well in English, they can't do well in their other classes.

As for maturity - well, the ones with weaker English skills are probably weak because they are a bit immature - poor organizational and prioritizing skills - but more like 15 or 16 year olds, not 12 or 13 year olds. That's a minority though. Most of the students are on par with university students in the West. In fact, about half the students are quite a bit brighter, more inquisitive, and have better organizational and prioritizing skills than a fair number of the EFL teachers I've worked with.

[Cleopatra]

I think a problem with Foundation year students is that 1) they are at the start of their college life and so are very immature indeed; and 2) they don't see the point in learning English and often quite resent it. Of course, we know that their English is nowhere near the level required for their academic studies, but students don't see that. So their motivation often extends to whether or not a specific word or structure will 'be in the exam'. If it's not, they're just not interested - the vast majority of them at any rate.

[Sheikh N Bake]

Well looking back to my ancient era of undergraduate days, I would have needed two promotions to become an apathetic loser in that scenario. I try to imagine if we had to put up with a bunch of Arabic teachers from the Middle East coming over and forcing their language down our throats and then needing to do most of our degree programs in Arabic.. Oh, $&%* that, I would've jumped a freighter to Tahiti.

[Citizenkane]

The above posters have given some explanation as to why foundation year programs are such an unsatisfactory experience, for both teachers and students.

In most countries, English-medium universities tend to be for elite students, who have probably studied in English-medium schools all their lives. In Saudi, however, even though - for whatever reason - most universities insist on teaching through English, almost all schools are Arabic medium, and English is fairly low priority. Just about any Mohammed or Ali can study at an 'English medium' university here, even if he would probably only score a 2 or 3 on the IELTS test.

The result is that foundation year programs, are, to put it bluntly, a bit of a joke. You have low-level students, as described above, studying from textbooks designed for use in American or British unis, reading about subjects they haven't the first clue about. So the exams are dumbed down to a ridiculous level, and 'teaching' becomes all about preparing students for these farcical exams which they will almost all be made to pass anyway.

Little wonder that both students, and teachers, find the whole charade thoroughly uninspiring and look only towards the end goal: $$$ in the case of the teachers, passing exams in the case of the students.

[Cairoteach]

I find all of this depressing. Probably because so much of has been said is accurate.

Based on my experience teaching in Oman, Jordan, the Gulf, and now here in Cairo is that you really need anticipate that you may have compromise some of your integrity. Try to talk to teachers who are actually working in those schools through online forums or at conferences/employment events. They will give you a good sense of how things really work at their institution.

As foreigners, we tend to work for places where the more privileged students go. These students and their parents have an overwhelming sense of entitlement. Students in need-based programs or who are on scholarship are often a delight to teach.

It's been a long time since I taught in the US so I don't know how bad it is there. Also, I'm happy to be at a school where the students are fairly well behaved and motivated.

[Cleopatra]

I agree with the citizen and the sheikh.

Sometimes it's surprising that foundation year students aren't more resentful than they are! In my experience, Saudis tends to have a quite positive attitude to learning English - they know it's very important for their careers (if they ever have them!) and their education. The problem is that in 90% of cases, their level of English is nowhere near high enough to study through that language.

In theory it would be possible to bring a low-level student up to university level in a year of intensive study, but that would require a level of intellectual maturity and commitment which the vast majority of these students simply do not have. Also, no university administration would be prepared to put up with the high number of failing students which such a policy would entail.

So we're left with the absurd situation where universities insist on being 'English medium' (mainly for prestige reasons) but refuse to take the steps neccessary to bring the students' level up to scratch. And the result of course is an endless vicious cycle of dumbing down, denial, and more dumbing down.... draw attention to this, of course, and you are labelled a 'bad teacher'. And so it goes on...

[Sheikh N Bake]

This may be interesting only to me and a few devotees of international higher education, but Cleo's points remind me in some way to the situation of Italy's universities in the 1970s and '80s and perhaps even today, although I haven't kept up since then. The Italian institutions became mostly open-admissions without offering any remedial instruction or academic advising at all. The result was hordes of underprepared students who simply flunked out in a paradigmatic paroxysm of survival of the fittest. Classroom, droning professor, library, end of story.--the continental Euro model.

In KSA you get hordes of underprepared students who never flunk out. Survival of the lowest common denominator.

In the US we also have some open-admissions colleges/universities, but the students get extensive remedial and academic advising help. Even the dormitories, at least in state U's, house professional counselors with master's degrees in student development.

[spiral78]

What you've described in Italian universities is still done in (some) Dutch unis today. Dropout rates in first and second year are dramatic.
It works, in a sometimes depressing way - and you've gotta give 'em credit for giving everyone a fair chance at it.

[Sheikh N Bake]

I guess that works for me--it's their bleak little country. I went to public school there as a kid. Yup, Dutch was my first L2. Big whoop huh.

[scot47]

The desison made at the highest level about using ENGLISH as the medium of instruction really neds to be reviewed. Why should I care ? I am outof here in b less than 90 days !

[Sheikh N Bake]

To Tahiti, right?