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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think that the best way to see if this is a problem with us, or with the Japanese who refuse to understand what we say, is to do the following:
1. Try to have a conversation with 100 Japanese people in Japanese, face-to-face. See how many freeze up or do other obnoxious behaviors that show they aren't listening (such as saying "ENGLISHEE NO!" or making the X sign with their arms).
2. Call 100 Japanese on the phone and have phone conversations with them. See how many freeze up.
My theory is that the number in #1 will be much higher than the number in #2.
I've noticed that Koreans are much less likely to freeze up, look constipated, ignore what I'm saying, or make the X with their arms when talking over the phone. They still know that I'm not a native from my accent, but they pay a lot more attention to what I'm saying and less attention to the color of the skin or my odd facial features. |
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the4th2001
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
I think that the best way to see if this is a problem with us, or with the Japanese who refuse to understand what we say, is to do the following:
1. Try to have a conversation with 100 Japanese people in Japanese, face-to-face. See how many freeze up or do other obnoxious behaviors that show they aren't listening (such as saying "ENGLISHEE NO!" or making the X sign with their arms).
2. Call 100 Japanese on the phone and have phone conversations with them. See how many freeze up.
My theory is that the number in #1 will be much higher than the number in #2.
I've noticed that Koreans are much less likely to freeze up, look constipated, ignore what I'm saying, or make the X with their arms when talking over the phone. They still know that I'm not a native from my accent, but they pay a lot more attention to what I'm saying and less attention to the color of the skin or my odd facial features. |
I can't comment on other people's experiences, but I've had harder times being understood over the phone rather than in person while doing business. When I first started my job, I had to call a client to order some fabric. Due to my pronunciation being what it was, they couldn't understand me and eventually transfered me over to their Chinese speaker. I asked my boss about it, and he told me that from time to time, the way I spoke and my word choices were confusing and that even he had a hard time understanding me occasionally. After that incident, I bought a pronunciation book and practiced daily. Now I rarely have such issues.
Some men -- especially older men -- don't understand what's being said unless it's said a specific way with the correct words. Horribly inflexible, but it happens regardless of dialect or foreignness. It's annoying to listen to gaijin rant, rave, and play the race card every time they stumble across problems here in Japan or anywhere else for that matter. I know some of you are full confidence and what have you, but maybe you should just accept the thought that your Japanese (or other foreign language skills) isn't as good as you think it is and roll with it. Solve the issue now, and there'll be fewer issues tomorrow. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I've noticed that Koreans are much less likely to ....look constipated .... or make the X with their arms when talking over the phone. |
Just out of curiosity, how would you know what the person on the other end of the phone is doing?  |
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jcook77
Joined: 08 Oct 2010
Posts: 32
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| However, just listen to some Americans speak. The first problem is that they fail to understand that tongue placements for t's, d's, r's, g's, and k's are different in Japanese and f's aren't pronounced the same way. Second, they tend to vocalize certain vowels (desU, shimaSU, shimashIta, bokU, etc) when they shouldn't. Third, they tend to unnecessarily stress random sounds. All in all, it's difficult to understand some Americans when they speak. |
Uh-oh. Is this another baseless indictment of Americans? Or by 'Americans,' did you mean all gaijin? Because there's no doubt that all foreigners make these mistakes ... |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: |
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seklarwia posted
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| I've never had people start telling me that they don't speak English even whilst I'm speaking to them in Japanese. |
Sorry, have to ask, how long have you lived here? This has happened to me too many times to count. Of course, it's worse when my students say it.
seklarwia posted[/b
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| I often get approached by people especially in stores and offices when I'm doing my "lost lemon" impression [b]and they always start off by speaking to me slowly in Japanese and as soon as I they realise I can understand, they start prattling off like they are speaking to any other customer and I have to keep telling them to slow down because my Japanese really isn't that good. |
Have to wonder where these stores/offices are. Maybe 50/50 in my case, but more often they tend to try English first (maybe more common in Tokyo). |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, double post!
But, yes, this does seem to happen more often in countries where people assume certain people can't ever learn/use their language. I can't speak for experience in Korea (my Korean is limited to a few basic phrases), but it has certainly been true in China and Taiwan (to some degree) Hong Kong, and Japan. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
seklarwia posted
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| I've never had people start telling me that they don't speak English even whilst I'm speaking to them in Japanese. |
Sorry, have to ask, how long have you lived here? This has happened to me too many times to count. Of course, it's worse when my students say it.
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Actually I can't say I recall this ever happening to me either, and I've been here 13 years. I arrived after having already learned Japanese for 5 years at high school and 3 years at university, which helped a lot no doubt. I'm pretty sure having spent most of that time in the Kanto area where people are a lot more used to the idea that non-Japanese can actually speak the language has helped also. |
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the4th2001
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| jcook77 wrote: |
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| However, just listen to some Americans speak. The first problem is that they fail to understand that tongue placements for t's, d's, r's, g's, and k's are different in Japanese and f's aren't pronounced the same way. Second, they tend to vocalize certain vowels (desU, shimaSU, shimashIta, bokU, etc) when they shouldn't. Third, they tend to unnecessarily stress random sounds. All in all, it's difficult to understand some Americans when they speak. |
Uh-oh. Is this another baseless indictment of Americans? Or by 'Americans,' did you mean all gaijin? Because there's no doubt that all foreigners make these mistakes ... |
Not baseless and I was using Americans as my main example. Different foreigners have different problems, but not all foreigners mangle Japanese pronunciation like (North) Americans do. Koreans tend to have difficulties pronouncing tsu and chu sounds, but Koreans' Japanese is understandable. Spanish, Italian, and French speakers have their own issues when speaking Japanese, but they are still better than most Americans. Personally, I believe that Spanish speakers' Japanese pronunciation is beautiful, but that's probably just because the sounds are relatively similar.
Sorry if I hit a nerve, but seeing that I'm American with advanced Japanese skills, I feel comfortable saying what I said. Again, go listen to some Americans speak Japanese and then you tell me how baseless I actually am. |
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the4th2001
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| Apsara wrote: |
| gaijinalways wrote: |
seklarwia posted
| Quote: |
| I've never had people start telling me that they don't speak English even whilst I'm speaking to them in Japanese. |
Sorry, have to ask, how long have you lived here? This has happened to me too many times to count. Of course, it's worse when my students say it.
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Actually I can't say I recall this ever happening to me either, and I've been here 13 years. I arrived after having already learned Japanese for 5 years at high school and 3 years at university, which helped a lot no doubt. I'm pretty sure having spent most of that time in the Kanto area where people are a lot more used to the idea that non-Japanese can actually speak the language has helped also. |
I've been living in Tokyo for about 6 years and it's never happened to me. |
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move
Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 132
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: |
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It probably comes down to pronunciation and intonation. Also, think about all the experience we have trying to understand what people say to us in Japanese (every day). Now think about how often the person you're talking to comes across this situation. Like others noted, it happens even with native speakers in the same language. My friend from Idaho (who has no discernible accent whatsoever) was in Scotland trying to order a beer, and the bartender had no idea what was coming out of his mouth. It went something like this..
Can a get a beer?
What?
Can I get a beer?
BLAH BLAH BLAH? |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:41 am Post subject: |
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move posted
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Can a get a beer?
What?
Can I get a beer?
BLAH BLAH BLAH? |
But there is a difference where one doesn't even recognize what language it is (mistaking Japanese for English for example). In this case, the two languages don't really sound at all alike.
Getting accents is tricky sometimes. A cockney speaker I knew in Hong Kong was difficult to follow at first, but I would never have mistaken what he was speaking for Chinese... 
the4th2001 posted
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| Sorry if I hit a nerve, but seeing that I'm American with advanced Japanese skills, I feel comfortable saying what I said. Again, go listen to some Americans speak Japanese and then you tell me how baseless I actually am. |
Hmm, I seem to notice most English speakers as having some problems with Japanese pronunciation. Especially certain sounds and the stressed vowels can be tricky sometimes (remembering that is, not necessarily producing).
I still cringe every time I hear David Spector speak on TV...  
Now, if only my pronunciation could be that "bad".
the4th2001 posted
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| I've been living in Tokyo for about 6 years and it's never happened to me. |
I've been living here a little over double that, and I've run out of toes and fingers counting the times it has happened (used to be good at math, but...).
Anyway hats off to you for getting your Japanese level up there, maybe we'll see you on TV soon... |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| the4th2001 wrote: |
| jcook77 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| However, just listen to some Americans speak. The first problem is that they fail to understand that tongue placements for t's, d's, r's, g's, and k's are different in Japanese and f's aren't pronounced the same way. Second, they tend to vocalize certain vowels (desU, shimaSU, shimashIta, bokU, etc) when they shouldn't. Third, they tend to unnecessarily stress random sounds. All in all, it's difficult to understand some Americans when they speak. |
Uh-oh. Is this another baseless indictment of Americans? Or by 'Americans,' did you mean all gaijin? Because there's no doubt that all foreigners make these mistakes ... |
Not baseless and I was using Americans as my main example. Different foreigners have different problems, but not all foreigners mangle Japanese pronunciation like (North) Americans do. Koreans tend to have difficulties pronouncing tsu and chu sounds, but Koreans' Japanese is understandable. Spanish, Italian, and French speakers have their own issues when speaking Japanese, but they are still better than most Americans. Personally, I believe that Spanish speakers' Japanese pronunciation is beautiful, but that's probably just because the sounds are relatively similar.
Sorry if I hit a nerve, but seeing that I'm American with advanced Japanese skills, I feel comfortable saying what I said. Again, go listen to some Americans speak Japanese and then you tell me how baseless I actually am. |
I know a British guy who has been here a good 25+ years, and knows a great deal of Japanese. His pronunciation is TERRIBLE. He speaks the same way an English person who doesn't know any Japanese does. I can not give it justice in writing.
Kinda like KonnichiWAH, WaTAshi WA TIMU DeSU! My fiance thinks it is so much fun to listen to him. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| Sorry, have to ask, how long have you lived here? This has happened to me too many times to count. Of course, it's worse when my students say it. |
Only a fraction of the time you have, but two years is hardly fresh off the plane. But I notice that Apsara can match you for years here.
Perhaps we just look less intimidating than you. 
| Quote: |
| Have to wonder where these stores/offices are. Maybe 50/50 in my case, but more often they tend to try English first (maybe more common in Tokyo). |
To be fair, the Japanese don't see English speaker when they look at me. But you would think they would be even more hesistant to approach me in case I couldn't speak either English or Japanese, but they are not. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| gaijinalways wrote: |
| Sorry, have to ask, how long have you lived here? This has happened to me too many times to count. Of course, it's worse when my students say it. |
Only a fraction of the time you have, but two years is hardly fresh off the plane. But I notice that Apsara can match you for years here.
Perhaps we just look less intimidating than you.
| Quote: |
| Have to wonder where these stores/offices are. Maybe 50/50 in my case, but more often they tend to try English first (maybe more common in Tokyo). |
To be fair, the Japanese don't see English speaker when they look at me. But you would think they would be even more hesistant to approach me in case I couldn't speak either English or Japanese, but they are not. |
What's funny, is what they consider intimidating here. I am prolly the least intimidating guy there is. I would lose a stare down to a kid. Thing is, Japanese think I am scary for some reason escapes me. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Japanese who don't understand gaijin Japanese |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
I used to think it was just me, but often times I will talk to Japanese people, and there is always that one person who just can't seem to understand me. Anyhow recent story
I subbed at an elem school the other day. The guy they had help me out, didn't understand any of my Japanese at all. I asked in Japanese "what is the students English level", he thought I said seitan instead of seito-tachi  A nearby JT saw this, and came and resuced me, as she understood me.
My Japanese is not fluent, but it is def pretty solid. So, it's not me saying all kinds of gibberish. Wonder what it is? Are they nervous when talking to a gaijin, and just get flustered? Kinda funny and annoying at the same time. |
Ohje come on!
My wife speaks Englsih really well I think but she has experienced many tiems people in England and America who act like they can't here her.
In fact many times even my mum listens to her and then goes blank and obviously didn't understand. And I've seen this happen with other English people and also my wife has to speak English to other foreigners oin the phone in English and many times they say, "What? What? What?"
It makes me sad and a bit angry how insensitvie that some of my friends and countrymen and fellow gaijins can be so I don't believe it is some kind of sense fo superiosity in Japan that makes people not get it.
Oh yeah, and sometimes there are jerks around the world and someone who happense to be Japanese being a jerk doens't mean that their jerkness comes from being Japanese.  |
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