Job Discussion Forums

[Georgeisnthere]

Some interesting thoughts, my question is thus;
If a foreigner married to an Indonesian got a KITAP and then his/her employer tried to cut their salary due to loosely having similar rights as 'locals', would said person then be able to change employers and not tell them that they possess a KITAP, and apply for a KITAS as well?

[Fishy]

I don't see how this is a concern. If a school offers you a lower salary because you are a resident then you simply tell them you will walk away. If they want you to do the job they will pay you the going rate. What are they going to do, let you walk away and hire another foreign teacher who definitely is more expensive? I don't see any issue here, you accept the job and negotiate as usual. You are being paid to be a native speaker or a qualified teacher, not a foreigner.

[phis]

@Fishy: My argument was addressing the subject of whether they would offer applicants with a KITAP a salary that was 'higher' than other foreign teachers. I truly believe that they will not, and that, in fact, they will go in the opposite direction and try to offer you less, and hold other fringe benefits as well.

Of course, nobody in their right mind would accept this, and would hopefully negotiate for the same salary as other foreign teachers. However, pushing for a higher salary than other foreign teachers, especially if one did not have the same qualifications, would indeed have the employers walking away and employing someone else. This would especially be the case if you had tried to negotiate in a way that they saw as making them lose face. Negotiating is a skill that not many possess, and negotiating here, especially with Chinese employers, is walking a very fine line indeed!

Your argument about them not walking away because another teacher would be more expensive doesn't quite hold up. You would be negotiating for a higher salary, or if that failed, the same salary as another teacher. So no savings there! In addition, they may see the tax they have to pay for someone with a KITAS worth it, as they would, if necessary, be able to hold that person to their contract, using the penalty clauses included in said contract. Whereas, they may well see you, after all this negotiating, as a loose cannon; a potential troublemaker who would think nothing of stirring up other employees before walking away with impunity.

Anyway, all this is mere conjecture. It will be interesting to watch and see how the whole situation develops.

[Fishy]

Phis, you seemed to have missed my point. I did not suggest that you could push for a higher salary if you had a KITAP. My point again is that you get paid for your qualifications and for being a native speaker of English. It doesn't matter whether you are a resident or not, you would be insane to accept a job for less money because you were a resident, you are still a native speaker of English (that being the most basic skill needed for an ESL job in Indonesia.)

[rayman]

Did anyone else attend the Socialization Immigration Laws conference today hosted by KPC Melati in Jakarta?

As mentionedby Chezal, the law is just waiting to be signed off by SBY. Some additional information I found of interest:

* If you have already been married to an Indonesian for more than 2 years, you will get an ITAP (Izin Tinggal Titap) immediately e.g. If you marry your spouse in Australia and stay there for 2 years before coming to live in Indonesia, you are entitled to an ITAP immediately. This ITAP entitles you to work in Indonesia without requiring a work permit or sponsor.

So there are no previous residence or KITAS requirements.

* With an ITAP you still have to get a re-entry permit. You will be able to get, as now, a multiple re-entry permit that is valid for 2 years.

[phis]

Then we agree on the basics. All people can do know is wait and see what happens when people with a KITAP start applying for jobs.

[Bule_Gila]

This is the news I have been waiting to hear for 6 years now! It's about time!!

I dont think that schools will attempt to offer expat teachers who have a KITAP less salary. Think about it, it would be easier and cheaper for these schools to hire an expat with a KITAP, rather than paying out for an expat's KITAS. I think that schools would want to attract expat teachers with a \KITAP for this reason alone. It would make no sense at all for them to try and cut salaries for KITAP holders, since there are hundreds of other schools that would not mind paying the normal salary. With that being said there are some concerns:

Does the teacher with a KITAP have to have the minimum BA degree?

Will teachers with a KITAP be paid, according to their qualifications and work experience?

Will schools require expats with a KITAP to sign a contract? If so, will the teacher be restricted from teaching at other places?

[Flicka]

I suppose with the need for KITAS being eliminated, the qualifications accepted etc will be at the school's discretion. So if you want a job at EF, probably you can go back to getting it with no quals but if you want a job at a better school, they will insist on quals according to their own guidelines. Example, I don't imagine TBI will hire someone without a CELTA just because they have a KITAP. I can't imagine top International schools hiring a KITAP with fewer quals over a KITAS with more just to save a few bob either, but then again this is Indonesia so who knows!

Spose it depends if the employers think being a local's spouse qualifies someone to teach or not! Or are willing to overlook this matter.
I suppose it gives teachers--who are thus married-- who have lots of experience, quals but not the "correct" first degree more of a level playing field again!

[phis]

[rayman]

In answer to your question, logic says it would depend on where you were when you were hired. For international schools, this means if you apply from outside Indonesia, then you are an 'overseas hire'. If you apply 'in country', you are local hire. I imagine this would remain so whether you have a KITAP or not.

In saying this, even before talk of the KITAP, many international schools either implemented or currently plan to implement a new part of the contract which states after 'X' amount of years working for the school, the employee will convert from an overseas to a local hire. This makes sense as some teachers have been on staff for 10-20+ years and would therefore be considered a resident of Indonesia moreso than their 'home' country.

[Bliss]

Such a relief, I've been married for 10 years and trying to move to Indonesia for 2.
In response to the question of why the 180 on this subject, I believe it had to do with the UN's human rights counsil

[newtefl168]

[newtefl168]

Also related to the local hire question , my friend here in china has a teaching degree , she worked here in china for 1 year then applied for a different job at another international school but was classed as a local hire because she applied for the job while she was in the same country ! so her wages are a lot less then the other foreign teachers and she doesn�t get other benefits such as flights home and housing allowance ,
So I would imagine that this is commonplace amongst international school's any where in the world.

[rayman]

According to the law netefl168, your employer would need to sponsor you on a KITAS until 2 years has passed since the time you got married (legally). Then you could apply for an ITAP (permanent residency visa).

[newtefl168]