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the_otter
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 134
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 Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I keep a certain distance - mostly because of instinct rather than design TBH. I'm not much older than my students. I need them to understand that I'm their teacher, not their friend, even though I wish nothing but the best to all of them.
They have my email to ask me English-related questions if they choose, and can drop by my office. The other FT is much more extroverted than me and often (almost every day) has students at her home. In her shoes, I think I'd go insane. To each their own. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Being instructed to be more accessible to my students |
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| DosEquisX wrote: |
My superior instructed me to be more accessible to my students outside of my class. Strangely enough, another student suggested something similar as she pointed out my shyness outside of class.
While I do converse with some of my students, I certainly do not engage them to the degree that some of the other teachers do. Quite frankly, I think one goes a bit too far by inviting them up to his apartment (though no girls alone of course).
I'd rather keep the teacher and personal sides of me separate. Sure, it's not too bad to get to know a couple of them outside of class as I have with some who have greatly assisted me with my transition to China. But I personally don't want to get too close.
One student asked for some contact information and I gave that student my e-mail address. I have heard many recommendations to not do that. But my boss said I had to do be more accessible. So, I did so.
What are the opinions of Dave's here? How personal is too personal? |
Based on all the information you've provided in the thread, it sounds to me like you are coming off like a jerk. Maintaining a professional distance is fine and appropriate. But by refusing to say more than hello, you are most likely giving the impression of a bad attitude or a personality problem. Physically stopping and having 30 seconds or a minute of conversation, unless you are particularly in a hurry, would fit with social norms both in China and in the west. |
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slareth
Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 82
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| Physically stopping and having 30 seconds or a minute of conversation, unless you are particularly in a hurry, would fit with social norms both in China and in the west. |
What? No it doesn't.
This is not directed at anyone in particular but I do get the impression that many FT's use their students as some kind of 'friend's list" or think they are to be used as personal assistants.
Make your own friends and have your own life outside of the classroom. That is rewarding. Picking 'friends' from a pool of people when you hold authority and power over them is cheap and a little sad. |
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7969
Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| slareth wrote: |
| Zero wrote: |
| Physically stopping and having 30 seconds or a minute of conversation, unless you are particularly in a hurry, would fit with social norms both in China and in the west. |
What? No it doesn't. |
When did it become socially unacceptable for a teacher and student to have a few moments of casual conversation with one another? Did you ever visit one of your profs during office hours? Did you never once stray off topic and discuss something other than the original reason you showed up at their door? Never chatted with them in passing anywhere on campus?
| slareth wrote: |
| This is not directed at anyone in particular but I do get the impression that many FT's use their students as some kind of 'friend's list" or think they are to be used as personal assistants. |
About using the students as assistants, they help me with something, I help them with something. They're not being "used." It's called reciprocity and it's a normal function for most people. Anywhere.
| slareth wrote: |
| Make your own friends and have your own life outside of the classroom. That is rewarding. Picking 'friends' from a pool of people when you hold authority and power over them is cheap and a little sad. |
This is both patronizing and doctrinaire.
In the real world for those of us who inhabit the more remote areas of China, or areas less frequented by fellow laowai, some of your students will become acquaintances and friends more often than not, for obvious reasons (close proximity, common language, fewer options outside campus). If you've got half a brain in your head it's easy enough to have them as friends outside class and still be impartial in class. They understand that. Not only that, students can open a lot of doors for you (figuratively) that would otherwise remain closed. A few of the best experiences I've had in China were to the small towns and villages some of my students call home. Just so it's clear I'm not a total loser in some people's eyes I still have "real" friends who are colleagues and a few other friends spread out here and there.
When living abroad one has to adapt to different norms. In China teachers being more friendly with students is one of those norms.
BTW, one of my professors back home eventually became a good friend of mine. We had some common interests and met outside class from time to time. 15 years later we still keep in touch. If that's "cheap and a little sad" fine, I'll take it. My life's better for it. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: |
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be available.
set up one or two hours a week to be in your office.
most of the time, no students will show. do your grading.
surf the net. set up a special email account only for
school business.
be friendly.
when walking on campus and you pass one of your students,
say more that just hello. ask a couple questions, give them a
chance to use english outside of class. where are they going?
have they studied? have they had lunch? what's the air-speed
velocity of an unladen african swallow? |
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Silent Shadow
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 380
Location: A stones throw past the back of beyond
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| choudoufu wrote: |
be available.
set up one or two hours a week to be in your office.
most of the time, no students will show. do your grading.
surf the net. set up a special email account only for
school business.
be friendly.
when walking on campus and you pass one of your students,
say more that just hello. ask a couple questions, give them a
chance to use english outside of class. where are they going?
have they studied? have they had lunch? what's the air-speed
velocity of an unladen african swallow? |
Good advice. The only obstacle to this is that many students feel self-conscious and embarrased when speaking English in public, especially when many of their peers are within earshot.
Added to this, is the fact that they're often overladen with many classes and too much study.
"Must get to the canteen before all the fresh food is taken".
"...need to wolf it down quickly, so that I can get back in time for afternoon class". |
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mat chen
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 494
Location: xiangtan hunan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:19 am Post subject: |
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I paint my smile on my face every
morning and put on my bulbus nose.
My school is funny it has these little slits on the doors so people can look in and see but people can't see out. I leave the door open and the students close the door. I open the door and they close it. It is kind of like the people during the second world war who were liberated and then returned to their prison cells.
Seriously time spent with your students is the most rewarding of experiences in China. What I am finding out now is that the best students of English are not studying English.
Go for walks in the evening and you will meet many interesting and informative people. |
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igorG
Joined: 10 Aug 2010
Posts: 1473
Location: asia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Being instructed to be more accessible to my students |
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Yes, yes, yes. going for a walk with a few students that speak English well enough is great. You'll rack your brain just a little to make the communication as fruitful and everything will be great. And, yes, yes, yes, local students, especially the ones with poorer langauge command feel embarrassed to speak English in public and we should say more than just "hello" to show we social which teachers should be after all. However, the point seems to be that how far we go beyond that "hello" and whether our supervisors aren't trying to abuse our terms and conditions. Or, whether they aren't trying to promote their schools at our expense.
| Zero wrote: |
| DosEquisX wrote: |
My superior instructed me to be more accessible to my students outside of my class. Strangely enough, another student suggested something similar as she pointed out my shyness outside of class.
While I do converse with some of my students, I certainly do not engage them to the degree that some of the other teachers do. Quite frankly, I think one goes a bit too far by inviting them up to his apartment (though no girls alone of course).
I'd rather keep the teacher and personal sides of me separate. Sure, it's not too bad to get to know a couple of them outside of class as I have with some who have greatly assisted me with my transition to China. But I personally don't want to get too close.
One student asked for some contact information and I gave that student my e-mail address. I have heard many recommendations to not do that. But my boss said I had to do be more accessible. So, I did so.
What are the opinions of Dave's here? How personal is too personal? |
Based on all the information you've provided in the thread, it sounds to me like you are coming off like a jerk. Maintaining a professional distance is fine and appropriate. But by refusing to say more than hello, you are most likely giving the impression of a bad attitude or a personality problem. Physically stopping and having 30 seconds or a minute of conversation, unless you are particularly in a hurry, would fit with social norms both in China and in the west. |
I really don't think he's coming off like a jerk. I bet he's worried about his students' demands for social activities and some further spoken practice. Don't our local supervisors like freebies from us? Moreover, he may be worried about having to answer varieties of primitive questions or even questions that could possibly compromise his position. |
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Riviello
Joined: 12 Apr 2011
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:31 am Post subject: |
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I agree with the above as well as with some of the other statements.
I don't have a problem shooting the breeze with a student while walking across campus and usually say Good Morning to the kids on my way to class. But, it seems to me that if a student that isn't in your class strikes up a conversation, an invitation of some sort will soon foolow. |
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slareth
Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 82
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| 7969 wrote: |
| slareth wrote: |
| Zero wrote: |
| Physically stopping and having 30 seconds or a minute of conversation, unless you are particularly in a hurry, would fit with social norms both in China and in the west. |
What? No it doesn't. |
When did it become socially unacceptable for a teacher and student to have a few moments of casual conversation with one another? Did you ever visit one of your profs during office hours? Did you never once stray off topic and discuss something other than the original reason you showed up at their door? Never chatted with them in passing anywhere on campus?
| slareth wrote: |
| This is not directed at anyone in particular but I do get the impression that many FT's use their students as some kind of 'friend's list" or think they are to be used as personal assistants. |
About using the students as assistants, they help me with something, I help them with something. They're not being "used." It's called reciprocity and it's a normal function for most people. Anywhere.
| slareth wrote: |
| Make your own friends and have your own life outside of the classroom. That is rewarding. Picking 'friends' from a pool of people when you hold authority and power over them is cheap and a little sad. |
This is both patronizing and doctrinaire.
In the real world for those of us who inhabit the more remote areas of China, or areas less frequented by fellow laowai, some of your students will become acquaintances and friends more often than not, for obvious reasons (close proximity, common language, fewer options outside campus). If you've got half a brain in your head it's easy enough to have them as friends outside class and still be impartial in class. They understand that. Not only that, students can open a lot of doors for you (figuratively) that would otherwise remain closed. A few of the best experiences I've had in China were to the small towns and villages some of my students call home. Just so it's clear I'm not a total loser in some people's eyes I still have "real" friends who are colleagues and a few other friends spread out here and there.
When living abroad one has to adapt to different norms. In China teachers being more friendly with students is one of those norms.
BTW, one of my professors back home eventually became a good friend of mine. We had some common interests and met outside class from time to time. 15 years later we still keep in touch. If that's "cheap and a little sad" fine, I'll take it. My life's better for it. |
It is not the norm in China. I have asked my wife and her friends about this and they all said you'd be lucky to get a nod of the head from a teacher outside of class. Unless of course you are paying them money for 'tutoring'. Maybe this is isolated to Qingdao and Jinan where they have studied but I have my doubts about that.
Yes, I fully understand the 'they help you, you help them' menatality but how exactly can you help them? Outside of giving them better grades, free English lessons, or special treatment, what do you think you have to offer a student (EDIT - in their eyes)? It does not matter if you are totally impartial or not. If others understand you are friends with a student it just opens a can of worms. If those students do well in class you may be accused of favoritism, if they do poorly your 'friendship' may encounter difficulties. Other students may not try as hard in your class if they are not your friend because they feel they will not do as well unless they are. I fail to see an upside. I do not understand why anyone would put themselves in that kind of a position. Most of my students are not mentally or emotionally mature enough to believe a 'friendship' can exist without tangible benefits. Perhaps I have been unlucky or underestimate my students. I am happy it has worked out so well for you up to now though, and I hope it continues that way.
Why can you not ask a coworker for assistance or try doing something by yourself. Personally, I have met many interesting people (good and bad) when doing things on my own but I guess YMMV.
I am glad you became a friend with your professor but please note it was not until after your student/teacher relationship was over. Or that is how I read it at any rate. I never said a teacher should under no circumstances have a student as a friend, just for me I will not consider any friendship with one who is currently my student.
Also, I never said or implied it was socially unacceptable to have a few moments of casual conversation with a student. You said it was the norm, I disagreed. I do not encourage this behavior from my students or coworkers. It is unacceptable for me to do so. That is all. Casual conversation, if it could end there, would be fine, but it usually does not. An invitation often follows. An invitation I have to decline. Declining an invitation is uncomfortable for all involved so I'd rather keep some distance.
Anyway, neither of us are going to change how we view this subject. I also do not think there is one right answer so we are essentially going in circles when you are not busy misunderstanding my posts. You do what works for you and I do what works for me. I hope the OP does what works for him instead of listening to us or changing his behavior for the sake of others. |
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MisterButtkins
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 1221
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Apparently some people are too insecure to talk to their students, not naming names here. |
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wiganer
Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| I like a lot of my students but I think it is fine to establish certain boundaries, my students aren't invited to my flat nor do they have access to my phone number. They have access to my email and if they write to me I reply promptly. If I see them out and about - If I can stop and talk to them for a few minutes then why not - if I can't/won't do that then it would say a lot more about me than them. |
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slareth
Joined: 29 Jun 2010
Posts: 82
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Some people fail at reading comprehension and/or seeing things from another viewpoint. Not naming names here. |
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nickpellatt
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1522
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with slareth. Everyone is going to do things differently. LOL, I am also probably the most likely person in this thread to be the unnamed person who uses students as a 'friends list'. 
As I said before, context and the nature of the job is key IMO. One guy on my student 'friends list' last year was a guy just a few years younger than me at 39. Married with children, owner of more than one home, and senior HR manager in his company. In terms of power and influence, I had him over a barrel in terms of English ability, but in pretty much every area of life, he held the cards. More so in China, because when I wanted to visit the Dr, he was the one who held the linguistic key to getting something done. He spent 10 weeks studying at my training centre, and was part of my circle of friends at that time. We exchange occasional emails now.
Depending on the education setting, the normal balance of power and influence between teacher and student is not the same here. Not by a country mile.
I choose my jobs carefully. I wont teach at a Chinese Uni, and will return to the same employer later this year.
Everyone is going to be different though for sure. I wouldnt enjoy China very much if I only had you miserable lot for my friends 
Last edited by nickpellatt on Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It is not the norm in China. I have asked my wife and her friends about this and they all said you'd be lucky to get a nod of the head from a teacher outside of class. Unless of course you are paying them money for 'tutoring'. Maybe this is isolated to Qingdao and Jinan where they have studied but I have my doubts about that. |
As a FT, you are not equivalent, in society, to a Chinese teacher or professor. If you're at a college or university, best to think of yourself of something like, in western terms, a part-time adjunct. If you're at a training center, you're equivalent, in the social scheme, to a Pilates instructor. Or the guy who goes to offices and teaches the administrative assistants how to use Excel and PowerPoint. |
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