Job Discussion Forums

[haller_79]

[esbam2002]

My opinion is simply the same as a Canadian teacher her I know, which is that Vietnam is not ready to learn English yet. The problems are two parts:

The Schools:
Having been here in Ho Chi Minh now near 3 years I have worked so far 3 International Primary Schools, 2 Secondary Schools, and 3 Learning Centers. The general idea at all of them, minus the secondary schools where I only did speaking and listening and no real teaching, is that money comes first, and who cares about the product. Schools are more concerned about keeping happy students/parents and by which keeping the money in the school itself, to the point that they don�t seem to want teachers who actually teach, but rather they want circus clowns, and I guess we can thank backpackers, tourists, and teachers looking for easy money for this, that will entertain students and keep them amused, ignoring the fact that no real English is being learned.

I worked at Little Stars School in Binh Tan that was the worst in this. I was observed and told I was the worst teacher they had, and the manager even told me that we, Americans, are the worst teachers in Vietnam. My crime�.I actually was teaching English. Once I started having the students sing songs and play games though, I suddenly was an improving teacher with real potential. I hated it there though since with this after 3 months of summer course my students could sing �Twinkle Twinkle Little Star� and �Ten Little Indians� perfect, but they couldn�t speak English.

The other joyful experience was at VA Schools in District 11, where they could never figure out what they wanted us to do, since they blew in the wind with parent complaints. Of course though we as teachers were to blame, since all we are is marketing tools and scapegoats. One month could be fun, games, and coloring pictures, then the parents complained that their kid can�t speak English, so we get yelled at, and told to teach English. Well then in two weeks the parents complain again about how their brat isn�t having fun in class, we get yelled at and back to fun, games, and pictures. Then a few months later the kid can�t speak and back to teaching, and then�. I�m sure you get the idea.

Second schools are run by Vietnamese who never learned English themselves, and think if you know the words you can speak English ignoring tone, emotion, slang, sarcasm, body language, idioms, and other factors in how a native English speaker communicates, but yet these same Vietnamese managers know your language better than you.

IPS I had students that couldn�t speak English at all, but they still passed their speaking tests, to keep parents happy and paying money. Cleverlearn, Binh Tan, I failed students for excessively low English abilities, only to have Cleverlearn certify them to the next class. I have heard, first hand from the grading teacher who was told by the school to do this, about schools that grade students high, even though they have very low abilities, because the parents are doctors and pay very well, where as students who speak very well at a high level getting graded very low, simply because their parents didn�t pay the bill on time. Schools as well really don�t take their ESL programs all that seriously, but rather ESL programs are only there to attract business.

The Parents:
Parents are a huge problem as well. They complain if their kid isn�t learning English, but make no real efforts to have their kids do anything outside of the school. Most parents I have found as well are �absentee parents� who are to busy with their businesses and have no time for their kids. Personally to me they have no business having a kid if they can�t care of them and see to them, but be that as it may it is still a fact here in Vietnam.

I have had parents complain to schools why their rich brats can�t speak English better than a poor kid in District 1 selling candy and flowers. The reason is simple, which is that your rich child is not making any real efforts and only half speaking English maybe 30 minutes in a 2 hour class, and then goes home and doesn�t study or practice speaking anymore. The poor kid selling candy in District 1 is speaking English 5,6,7,8 or 9 hours a day, everyday.

Parents as well have no real concern for the quality of education that the students are getting. When at IPS I knew an ESL teacher whose step daughters were enrolled at the school too. He told me that at parents meetings that parents never cared about their kids education or the quality, but rather their complaints were things like the rooms are too cold, or the school isn�t clean enough.

Parents also normally have expectations that are too high for their kids. In an extreme case, as at IPS, I had a student who had a mental learning disability. The school was no help in telling me what it was so I could research it to try and think of ways to help this student, and the parents refused to listen that their kid had a problem, since again their image might look bad in public if they have a �defective� child, so they sacrifice their child�s future for their image today. I really liked this student and he was actually very intelligent, if you could focus him, but will never get the help he needs to reach his full potential.

As well parents think to high of their children at times, and demanding high grades, to look good, even though their child doesn�t have the abilities. They have unrealistic ideas about where their child is in their English ability, what they can do, and demand the good high grades. I got yelled at by a parent once for giving her daughter a 68% on a speaking test, because another school gave her daughter a 95%. I flat told her, to the horror of the Vietnamese admin that was with me, that the reason was that the other school wanted her money so they gave an incorrect grade higher than her daughter�s actual ability. The parent pulled the student and went back to the other school that gave the higher grade, because it looked better.

Problems are that the schools and parents take no responsibility, nor do schools place any accountability or responsibility on the student or the parents. God forbid they anger a parent since they might loose money. Instead all the responsibility is put on us as foreign teachers, since again God forbid a Vietnamese looks like they made a mistake, and we are nothing more to them than marketing tools and scapegoats for Vietnamese failures. Added as well that students are not expected, told, or even made, to study outside of the school. I actually suggested to my teacher manager at IPS to have the students study out of school, and you would think I peed in her rice soup.

[Andy123]

Very accurate post esbam2002. It is not pretty what say but it is true.

I am so tired of my students blaming the government for the poor quality of education. It is the parents who are the problem! I would place my public school kids against my �international school� students any day of the week.

I know a Vietnamese who went to VUS for many years. He now parks motorbikes and does odd jobs. Sure his English is very good but he has little hope for a good future. I am sure his parents now have doubts about the money they spent for their darling son to learn English only to park motorbikes for foreigners.

[mark_in_saigon]

Thanks to everyone for staying mostly on track and being polite. The story I referenced for this original post talks about VN going down the track of being a low cost labor supplier rather than investing in its future and becoming a nation that provides higher priced products requiring more highly skilled and educated workers. Assuming this scenario is true and is playing out now, then the push to educate the people in English skills is not as important as it would be if VN followed the paths of Korea and Japan - higher prices and more technical skills required. The more advanced the subject, the greater the need for English. In a nation of low tech industry, the lesser need.

At this point, a lot of English teaching may be similar to having a car or a nicer motorbike, it is fashionable for the elite to be having their children study English. If true, then all the things we go through with complaining parents, lack of organization, lack of motivation on behalf of the schools to achieve a higher degree of professionalism, those things are probably to be expected. If the people are really learning English as a fashion, it may not matter if they are passed to the next level when they should have failed.

Most of you have more expertise in ESL than I. But I have a lot of business background, and have some opinions on what is going on. I think that we have a system where the vast majority of the population will be working in lower paid jobs, regardless of their English skills. I do not think that just having intermediate level English skills is enough to lift a person to success here. A young person can have some education, have a good appearance, adequate English along with good levels of motivation and other personal attributes, yet still be stuck in the income range that will not bring financial success. The most impressive candidates for success can have the chance to move into the financial elite, but in a low tech country, it may mean that elite remains a limited number. And the greatest indicator of success may be family or government connections instead of ability and training. If indeed all this is true, there is not much we can do to change the nature of the system. Instead, the best we can hope for is to enjoy our special place here, and pursue whatever goals we have. My personal goal is to identify especially promising candidates and help them to find the tools to achieve success. But English is just one of those tools, and for most of them, probably not enough by itself.

I think one of the big schools has some slogan about English being the path to success. I think that is a bit misleading, probably more of a marketing ploy than a reality. In my work, I have had the opportunity to meet some very highly placed officials in university environments, as I am sure many of you have too. Clearly, a high level of skill with English is not a requirement for these positions, in fact, it is rarely encountered. This seems to be the case with the business leaders I meet as well.

I think we could all use a good dose of reality on life here. It can be a lot of fun, and we can certainly have an impact on the lives of some individuals. I have serious questions about the overall impact of what we are doing though, despite our best efforts. This does not mean we should give up, or not give our best efforts. But to think that English is the path to success in VN is, in my opinion, more hype than truth.

[haller_79]

[mark_in_saigon]

[I'm With Stupid]

[mark_in_saigon]

Another piece of the puzzle:

http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/pages/20130919171440-foreign-firms-switch-from-production-to-trading-in-vietnam.aspx

Most of the story is excerpted below:

Many foreign firms in Vietnam have shifted their focus away from production to trading imported products as import tariffs have fallen under free trade agreements.
Late last year Japan’s Mazda Motor Corp sent a letter to Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung saying it cannot set up a factory in Vietnam as planned, and would instead sell imported automobiles in the country.
Minister of Planning and Investment Bui Quang Vinh said it was regrettable since such projects are vital to the country. Vietnam hopes foreign investment would help it develop key sectors like automobiles, electronics, and processing industries by bringing technology.
Most other auto firms manufacturing in Vietnam, like Toyota, Ford, and Honda, have increasingly resorted to importing and selling products.
A similar trend is being witnessed in the electronics sector. A few years ago Sony shut down its plant in the country and switched to importing products it makes in other countries.
Others like Canon, Sharp, and LG have also started to depend on imports.
… blamed the trend on the free trade deals Vietnam signed with ASEAN, China, South Korea, and others that allow goods to be imported from them at tariffs of 0-5 percent.
With such low tax rates, foreign invested firms earn bigger profits from trading imports than by making them here, she said.
… cars cost 20 percent more to build in Vietnam than in other ASEAN countries.
…Many car manufacturing factories operate at 50 percent of their capacity…
The primitive state of the supporting industry is another reason for foreign firms to focus on imports rather than production. A Canon executive said the local market cannot supply the materials and equipment the company needs, so the firm imports up to 60 percent of them.
Local companies only supply basic materials like packages and sticking tape.
An economist who asked not to be named said the trend of shifting to imports would gather pace when Vietnam signs a free trade agreement with South Korea next year.
Economist Nguyen Minh Phong said this is likely to worsen Vietnam’s trade deficit and act as a drag on the development of local manufacturing, causing the country to miss its target of industrialization and modernization.
It would also hit jobs, he said.
Vietnam has become less attractive to foreign investors than some other ASEAN members like Indonesia, Thailand, and Malaysia.
This more than the global economic slowdown is the real reason foreign investment in Vietnam is slowing.
Phong said while the government has tried to improve the investment environment by ensuring economic stability, combating inflation, and restructuring the banking system, “the efforts are not enough amid increasingly fierce competition from regional countries.”
Since Vietnam has not carried out reforms, investors do not see new investment opportunities, he said, adding corruption has assumed serious proportions.
… foreign investors are interested more in Indonesia, Thailand, Myanmar, and some other ASEAN member countries.
Many Japanese firms - the biggest investors in Vietnam - like Toyota and Mitsubishi are expanding investment in Indonesia, Myanmar, and Malaysia, but not in Vietnam.

[spycatcher reincarnated]

This article seems very one sided to me. It is my understanding that:

FDI in to Vietnam is increasing
FDI disbursement is increasing
The Japanese are going nuts for investments in Vietnam at the moment. This is partly as a result of their ongoing spats with China.
Samsung is going absolutely mad on producing in Vietnam. I think that about 4 years ago their exports from Vietnam were zero and will be 20billion usd this year. This must be something like 15% of Vietnam's GDP. Admittedly Samsung is importing nearly everything for their factory, but believe they are happy with this as it allows them to overcharge their Vietnamese entity for these products and thus reduce CIT in Vietnam (transfer pricing).
I note that Samsung has just received a further investment license for a 1bln usd plus factory. Expect this will also result in massive exports.
All lawyers I speak to are inundated with work for new investments. They say that a very large portion of this is Japanese and the investments are much more sensible and real than investments of some years ago.
I note that over the last 2 years Vietnam's trade deficit has shrunk considerably and is now pretty much balanced. How would the writers of the article explain this?

I used to be in the auto industry and agree that Vietnam is not really the right place to produce cars at the moment. The auto industry, including some Vietnamese players are sh**ing themselves at the moment because of the reduction in import tariffs that is coming, even though these have been known about for some years now, and are paying newspapers to write articles such as these. The same way that Vinamilk sponsors articles about foreign companies overcharging for milk products.

With the reduced import taxes on cars and vehicles I wouldn't expect them to reduce in price as I would expect the Vietnamese government to increase the luxury tax on them.

According to a friend of mine who works in an investment fund, Vietnam is flavour of the month. He says the banks are buggered here, but they are everywhere. The perception is that Vietnam has bottomed and is climbing up again. Vietnam is not wonderful, but it offers higher returns than virtually anywhere else at the moment.

[vabeckele]

[mark_in_saigon]

Notice I referenced the article as a piece of the puzzle. I think that any one attempt to explain the economy or life here is rather futile, especially for westerners, who can never know half of what is really going on.

Still, if you are here long enough, you can gradually get a feel for it, even though your picture is never absolutely complete.

I try to take all the pieces of the pictures I see and try to add them up overall. What I come up with is that we are not in high cotton over here at this time, though if your own personal cotton patch is high, this is a great time and place for you.

I have been putting more and more weight into what I see happening with young graduates, and hearing what their experiences are, and what they feel their best options for the future are. That topic would really deserve its own thread, if discussed in detail.

[vabeckele]

And remember, 3 billion dollar loan projects are probably one definition of FDI but I wouldn't count my chickens on it. I would love to see those faces when 3 billion magically disappears into thin air.

One thing is clear: English is the medium where the Chinese, Japanese, Korean and the Vietnamese must communicate. So why are things still so dire here in country?

[spycatcher reincarnated]

I am not saying all here is wonderful.

The article I was referring to was basically saying that many foreign investors were not interested in investing in Vietnam or were doing badly here. Well I am sure this applies to "many", but overall foreign investors are doing very well in Vietnam.

I see the large financial issues here as being primarily related to the Vietnamese banking sector and state owned enterprises, and both of these have very large problems.

[mark_in_saigon]

I would certainly agree that SOME companies and "groups" are doing quite well. In fact, that is one of the reasons life can be so good for us, as our financial resources put us in that same strata of privilege. I also think that can be a negative, how certain groups can get so much benefit from the overall economic activity while adding minimal value from their efforts. Note the point below about less than 35 percent of firms reporting profits.

Of course, most "reports" here are of questionable value. Reports are just a piece of the puzzle, you have to factor in what you see, which should be pretty plain to those who get out and about.


More news:

RELATED CONTENT
Vietnam unlikely to keep budget overrun within limits

According to the finance ministry, around 42,450 businesses shut down or halted operations temporarily in the first three quarters.

Less than 35 percent of existing firms reported pre-tax profits during the period.

News website Saigon Times quoted Tran Dinh Thien, head of the Vietnam Institue of Economics, as saying late last month that the economy had struggled “at the bottom” for the past two years.

This year the economy has expanded 5.1 percent through September, a slower pace than expected by the government.

Last year, Vietnam saw its slowest GDP growth in 13 years.

[vabeckele]

Why does Vietnam hate China so much???

Because the Chinese will always beat the Viets at underhanded business practices. I love it when they cry about getting ripped off by Chinese firms - They deserve nothing less - Hell, traders here even bet against the economy doing well and the vast majority of it is being done under the frameworks set up by both Vietnam and the international community - hey know all too well most firms will collapse because of conditions here; give them back 30 % of their investment and pocket 70%. This is good business for them right now but this cannot continue as things inevitably change and when, all of a sudden, a group manages to pull it off, suddenly, in a panic, these traders have to shell out such huge percentages over the odds created the whole country again will collapse - hamsters on a wheel, all of 'em.