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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: |
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The contracts are sometimes, perhaps often, entered into by the employing agency in bad faith. They have no intention of fulfilling certain parts of the contract, if they can avoid doing so. Some will lie and scheme to defraud you from the moment you arrive.
Issues over transportation reimbursement, visa costs, internet hookup, number of hours and location of classes taught, living conditions, and so forth can make a FTs life miserable. There is virtually no chance that any institution would ever pay a breach fee over any of these things. |
Good lord, I am one lucky teacher!  |
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sistercream
Joined: 18 Dec 2010
Posts: 497
Location: Pearl River Delta
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| bluetortilla wrote: |
Again, I'm not advocating breaching contracts or breaking the law, just trying to know the law, and how the system functions. So do you, or anyone else reading all this, know of any foreigner who has been fined? What happens if you don't pay up? Can you go to jail? Has anyone ever heard of an FT going to jail for breach of contract? Or for going to jail for breaking the regulation on the Residency Permit, in particular the clause saying no outside work? That's the bottom line is it not?
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I don't know any individuals who have either done time or been fined, but know several who have been summarily kicked out of the country for working outside contract. If the government want to make an example of someone, it will probably fine or otherwise punish your erstwhile employer. |
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Opiate
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 630
Location: Qingdao
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| sistercream wrote: |
| bluetortilla wrote: |
Again, I'm not advocating breaching contracts or breaking the law, just trying to know the law, and how the system functions. So do you, or anyone else reading all this, know of any foreigner who has been fined? What happens if you don't pay up? Can you go to jail? Has anyone ever heard of an FT going to jail for breach of contract? Or for going to jail for breaking the regulation on the Residency Permit, in particular the clause saying no outside work? That's the bottom line is it not?
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I don't know any individuals who have either done time or been fined, but know several who have been summarily kicked out of the country for working outside contract. If the government want to make an example of someone, it will probably fine or otherwise punish your erstwhile employer. |
^^that
I also know a few who have been caught and nothing happened. Note however they were all married to locals. Being married to a local is not always a 'get out of jail free' card but it does help it seems.
The only folks I have seen do any time were those who over stayed their visas. |
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choudoufu
Joined: 25 May 2010
Posts: 3325
Location: Mao-berry, PRC
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
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from the previous thread...............
| bluetortilla wrote: |
It makes sense with all the tourism in Yunan, is that right?
Hey! I see you're in Hainan. What's the deal there? Expensive I bet. |
kunming has exploded in the past few years. the city area seems to have
doubled in just three years. new airport, new subway, light rail,
thousands of new highrises. high-speed rail station in the works, plans to
extend the line thru laos to thighland. oh, and tens of thousands of new cars.
it's no more expensive here than in kunming. in some ways much
cheaper. i'm in a small village (pop. 500k), not in the touristy cities
of sanya or haikou. no movie theater, no decent dvd stores, no bar
scene....see how much i can save! the fact that i doubled my pay
and benefits package didn't hurt neither. not much to do really,
but i like cycling through the coconut groves and to the beach.
if bored, it's an hour to haikou or 75 minutes to sanya on the
soopertrain, which also stops at the airport.
sanya and haikou much different. especially in sanya, if you don't
have housing included.
| PandaPandemonium wrote: |
| yes, please say something about hainan. it looks very attractive, being a tropical island and a major tourist destination. however, I've heard complaints about their treatment of foreigners |
attractive, yes. only the past few weeks have seen constant rain with
two typhoons. tourists? none in this town. they all head to haikou or
sanya. but then in sanya, most of the tourists (and signs) tend to be
russian. very laid back in this town. no complaints about the treatment. |
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bluetortilla
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Opiate wrote: |
| sistercream wrote: |
| bluetortilla wrote: |
Again, I'm not advocating breaching contracts or breaking the law, just trying to know the law, and how the system functions. So do you, or anyone else reading all this, know of any foreigner who has been fined? What happens if you don't pay up? Can you go to jail? Has anyone ever heard of an FT going to jail for breach of contract? Or for going to jail for breaking the regulation on the Residency Permit, in particular the clause saying no outside work? That's the bottom line is it not?
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I don't know any individuals who have either done time or been fined, but know several who have been summarily kicked out of the country for working outside contract. If the government want to make an example of someone, it will probably fine or otherwise punish your erstwhile employer. |
^^that
I also know a few who have been caught and nothing happened. Note however they were all married to locals. Being married to a local is not always a 'get out of jail free' card but it does help it seems.
The only folks I have seen do any time were those who over stayed their visas. |
On these notes I guess I'll spill the beans on what I think of these sort of things, although I did already mention the fallen fruit analogy.
If this is a crime, it sure appears to be a victimless one. Indeed, there are far grievous ways to harm society than to teach and improve folks' English on the sly for some pocket money. Obviously this is not a racket and no one is going to get rich off it or be approaching it from a greedy angle (you have a weird sense of what greed is if you see it that way). It seems pretty harmless to me (just being a buttinsky outsider mind you).
Having said that, it seems the real dangers lay in the people you teach more than the authorities! Well, whenever you go outside the law there is ambiguity on the one hand in the moral sense (but c'mon- these are silly stipulations after all while on the other extreme every society has a heavy penalty against murder and rightly so) and then there are the consequences of actually breaking the law on the other. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time!" Is there anyone who can say they NEVER break the law? And how many are that loyal to the school they work for that would think harmless PL's as morally wrong? Particularly when those lessons are in no sense direct competition to the school they work for?
OK, I blabbed on. And I respect those who feel the right thing to is honor their contract. That is upstanding. But I don't see it as so simple or black and white. Don't be a fool, don't backstab people and give to the world rather than take from it and you'll be OK. That's what I think. |
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Baozi man
Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Tortilla, Yes, you are wrong. Size, complexity, power could describe a tsunami or even an atomic blast. Do you want to walk into either of those? Much depends on your particular situation. Some of us are doing quite well here, others not so well
Understand that some of the major cities are undergoing massive construction programs. Literal acres of buildings are being demolished and new ones built. Subways are being constructed, Thousands of new cars operated by inexperienced and aggressive drivers are navigating super congested streets. It's difficult to ride a bike and sometimes even walk on main streets because cars are parked all over the sidewalks.
The dust and noise, including ear piercing bike and car alarms, is endless. Depending on your location, you may be subjected to endless racist taunts and mockery.
When you go to a restaurant, sit down, and are about to enjoy a tasty meal, a group of several guys may come in and, even though the place is large and nearly empty, sit down at the table next to yours. They will begin shouting in a rough sounding local dialect, and all light up cigarettes , the smoke of which will waft right across your plate and into your eyes and nostrils.
When you go for a hot bath in a public bathing place, you will enter a locker room with 300 lockers. Even though the place is nearly empty, the few of you who are there will find that your lockers are right next to each other; consequently, you will have to wait while others dress, unless you happen to enjoy bumping your naked rear end against your neighbors.
You may encounter sexually aggressive women who want you to pay off their debts, buy their son a house, and keep you as a side dish while they peng their home town fellow.
It's a land of avarice, where the strong crush the weak, the mighty oppress their neighbor, and the rich scoff at the poor. The only god in the minds of most people is MONEY. The laws are meaningless. Justice and foreigner are an oxymoron.
The imagination of men's hearts is only evil continually.... |
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bluetortilla
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Baozi man wrote: |
Tortilla, Yes, you are wrong. Size, complexity, power could describe a tsunami or even an atomic blast. Do you want to walk into either of those? Much depends on your particular situation. Some of us are doing quite well here, others not so well
Understand that some of the major cities are undergoing massive construction programs. Literal acres of buildings are being demolished and new ones built. Subways are being constructed, Thousands of new cars operated by inexperienced and aggressive drivers are navigating super congested streets. It's difficult to ride a bike and sometimes even walk on main streets because cars are parked all over the sidewalks.
The dust and noise, including ear piercing bike and car alarms, is endless. Depending on your location, you may be subjected to endless racist taunts and mockery.
When you go to a restaurant, sit down, and are about to enjoy a tasty meal, a group of several guys may come in and, even though the place is large and nearly empty, sit down at the table next to yours. They will begin shouting in a rough sounding local dialect, and all light up cigarettes , the smoke of which will waft right across your plate and into your eyes and nostrils.
When you go for a hot bath in a public bathing place, you will enter a locker room with 300 lockers. Even though the place is nearly empty, the few of you who are there will find that your lockers are right next to each other; consequently, you will have to wait while others dress, unless you happen to enjoy bumping your naked rear end against your neighbors.
You may encounter sexually aggressive women who want you to pay off their debts, buy their son a house, and keep you as a side dish while they peng their home town fellow.
It's a land of avarice, where the strong crush the weak, the mighty oppress their neighbor, and the rich scoff at the poor. The only god in the minds of most people is MONEY. The laws are meaningless. Justice and foreigner are an oxymoron.
The imagination of men's hearts is only evil continually.... |
It sounds like you're describing the entire world- the unfortunate side of it. No one is special because of their culture- there is only time and place, that's what is special.
There are four basic flavors to the pallet and none of them are good when they are out of balance.
It's none of my business, but if I felt the way about China as you seem to feel, I'd deduce I'd had enough and move on. That's why I say 'improvement' is relative. I'm sure what you're saying is assuredly a true part of the story of what China is, but it can only be one part of the story.
One thing is for sure- death is the place we're all headed for sooner or later. Where you go and what you see on the way are partly up to you and partly not. Fear will surely pin you down in one place in fear and desperation if you let it. Life calls mostly for faith and bravery.
How we'll go to death we never know, but that's what we do. I for one have no time to be bothered with obnoxious and sad people trying to get a reaction out of me, be they Chinese or any other people. Life's too short and sweet to be consumed by the unfairness of it. |
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Baozi man
Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Feelings? Nothing about feelings there, Grasshopper. Just reality, where I used to live. |
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bluetortilla
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Baozi man wrote: |
| Feelings? Nothing about feelings there, Grasshopper. Just reality, where I used to live. |
Don't call me grasshopper please. I'm not an insect and you sir are not my teacher.
I was polite enough to you. If you think someone naive, say so and save them the condescendence. Everything you've said about China so far has sounded very bitter, has it not? From your last description the place sounds like hell on earth.
God as money? The mighty oppressing the weak? Like China is the only place that's happening? Some places are calmer and some places are on fire, but there is good and bad everywhere.
No feelings? Everyone has feelings. |
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Baozi man
Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:40 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps you should find a teacher who will teach you the meaning of things such as integrity, honesty, a man keeping his word, and so forth.
Contrary to your protestations, your posts give the impression that you are very interested in entering into a contract in bad faith, which, in the realm of subjective moralism you occupy, is OK.
Various issues have been pointed out to you such as:
1. Illegal to teach outside your certified employer without permission.
2. Financial penalty for breach of contract.
3.Permission is routinely denied by many employers.
4. Individuals have been expelled from the country because of issues arising from this specific contract breach.
Then there are other issues such as the difficulty of doing business with some Chinese people, especially parents.
The problems associated with their lack of English and your [probable ]lack of Chinese.
The potential danger to your person if you run afoul the wrong type of "English teachers."
A lot of people think contracts in China are meaningless. They might be to a lot of people; however, if you have a problem, you can believe that they are not meaningless to the local PSB. Just yesterday, I was told by the local PSB office to provide documents proving that my employer had the proper certification to employ an FT. The PSB do care.
They specialize in detail work. One reason they may have used "torture" is because many Chinese rarely tell the truth. The only way they can find out anything is with a 12 volt battery. Of course, the people they torture enter into contracts in bad faith, have subjective values, and are always looking for a work around in order to carry out their schemes.
You asked some questions, you got some answers. I apologize for referring to you as grasshopper. Insects aren't expected to have moral codes. |
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bluetortilla
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Baozi man wrote: |
Perhaps you should find a teacher who will teach you the meaning of things such as integrity, honesty, a man keeping his word, and so forth.
Contrary to your protestations, your posts give the impression that you are very interested in entering into a contract in bad faith, which, in the realm of subjective moralism you occupy, is OK.
You asked some questions, you got some answers. I apologize for referring to you as grasshopper. Insects aren't expected to have moral codes. |
Yes, I have gotten answers, thanks everyone. I know the deal now on what could happen if you break your contract by teaching PL's. I wrote what I thought about it. I did not write I was planning to do it.
Not to indulge in a 'tit for tat,' I would just like to set the record straight here to say that I am NOT a moral relativist. In closing, I wrote my honest impression of the contract situation, and get accused by you of sounding like I WANT to enter a contract in bad faith (IOW, a liar- but just remember that even a faithful dog runs away from a cruel enough master). What I don't want is a whole lot of negativity and moaning. Nobody does I reckon.
Sir, as far as I believe, morality and ethics lay in the way we treat each other, not in the legal system. But it is incumbent to know the law to know the consequences of our actions. If I only say I don't agree with a law, does it mean I have broken it or plan to break it? That would presumptuous to think so, wouldn't it? Would you stifle free speech? Do I think it silly that you can't teach outside your school unless stipulated in the contract? Yes I do. That doesn't make me a moral relativist or a liar just to have an opinion!
I would think berating a whole nation of people on everything under the sun- from they way they cheat you on contracts to racist behavior in bath houses to insane women forcing you to buy them a house, without much of a good word to say about them to be more morally tenuous behavior than teaching PL's IMO.
And that's all I have to say about that. |
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Baozi man
Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Tortilla,
Just to be clear, the issue was never about teaching PLs. Apparently you missed the point. The issue was, and remains, entering into a written agreement in bad faith, that is, giving your word to not do something, all the while planning to do it.
I taught private lessons myself. I enjoyed it. I also had written permission to do it. The written permission was given, apparently, without the consent of the school administration. It was simply an FAO going rogue. He realized the injustice of intentionally grinding the face of an FT in the dirt of poverty, while the school principals were lunching on 1000 RMB bottles of bai jiu and securing 200,000RMB bribes.
He realized that something was wrong when a teacher, supposedly earning 3500RMb/monthly, paid ~ 300,000RMB cash for a new automobile and I was getting around on a 5 year old bicycle.
That one of the FAOs was secretly operating an EL school and feared he might be exposed if he didn't give me the letter has little, if any, bearing on the common Western value attached to the integrity of a man's word. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I have never heard of a foreigner put in jail for breach of contract.
Some have mysteriously died, but not jailed. |
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jayjjasper
Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 344
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| NO, but a foreigner being sued or even subject to a filing of suit may be detained in-country by "not being allowed to leave". |
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bluetortilla
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| jayjjasper wrote: |
| NO, but a foreigner being sued or even subject to a filing of suit may be detained in-country by "not being allowed to leave". |
Really- just out of curiosity- what sort of things do foreigners get sued for in China?
Maybe I overreact towards China (which is probably healthy and natural before moving to another country), but it does seem to me a place where you'll want to watch your step a bit more than other countries. But hopefully that's just my imagination (anyway- you have to watch your step to a greater or lesser extent in any country). Is there a good FAQ on the Do's and Dont's in China, both socially and legally? Should I buy Lonely Planet? Good sociological texts anyone can recommend? Good recent memoirs?
I read Riding The Red Rooster by Paul Theroux, ha- what a hoot that book was- but it is of course is ancient history. |
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