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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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 Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| time to teach wrote: |
| kurtz wrote: |
| Money is the new religion in Vietnam. It's all I hear the locals talk about; how to get money, how much money they can save, showing off how much money they have (mmmm, why so many high end luxury cars in Hanoi now?); they love the stuff. |
Money is and always will be the 'religion' of all developed and developing nations, just as it is in mine, the bad old USA, and just as it is in England and the rest of the EU.
Perhaps this is the sort of ugliness the OP was expressing in her emotional post, the overt and often blatant ethnocentricity that comes from the mouths of white foreigners. Perhaps our ugliness as westerners comes not from our actions, but from our preconceived notions of privilege and entitlement.
In America, where so many of my fellow ugly Americans reside, people spend much or most of their time making money and talking and dreaming about making more money. They too like to show off their money. In fact, how much money you have � your socioeconomic status � is in integral part of capitalist society and the American dream.
Blah, blah, blah, I�m sure you get my point: Vietnamese people are just as entitled to making, saving, and loving money (which would include smelling it and laying naked on it!) as the rest of us. Money gives us and our children the chance of a better life. To steal a phrase from John Ball: Don�t you ever wish you had more money? No more than you, man. |
Can't say I've seen the same levels of money loving in Vietnam compared to the rest of my travels. Sure, the West have lost many of their institutions and no longer have a moral compass, but Vietnam is a country with a rich history and culture, strong family values and respect for their ancestors, throw in some Buddhism too - they should have more in their lives than filling it with the latest iphone and being able to have a coffee without ripping out an ipad.
Being largely Buddhist, a religion of renouncing material possessions, it's quite sickening what the Vietnamese have become; as money hungry and consumer driven as the West. Due to actually having a vibrant culture, it seems much worse to me.
Lastly, the means of getting wealthy, through corruption, theft and whatever other means people get rich here, combined with the daily nickle and diming could easily lead to expats getting a little cynical, or "ugly".
Sure, the Vietnamese have the right to love money as much as anyone, but there's a reason people put bars on their windows, bolt everything down, don't carry wallets; it's just that sort of place. |
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snollygoster
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:11 am Post subject: Lip service |
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Vietnamese are Buddists? In name only, and that mixed with a lot of Ancestor Worship, animism, and money worship.
In the south there is a large Catholic contingent- in the north, the "professed" religion is Buddhism. (thats what started the "Vietnam" or "American" war. It only later turned into a Commies V Capitalists thing.)
So, from the perspective of a practicing Buddhist, Vietnamese are Buddhist by lip-service, and when it suits the particular purpose. |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
| Being largely Buddhist, a religion of renouncing material possessions, it's quite sickening what the Vietnamese have become; as money hungry and consumer driven as the West. |
Well the West was built on Christianity, which is also supposedly about giving up material possessions. All of these religions are the same. Telling others to give up material possessions while constantly sticking the begging bowl in people's faces asking for money. I had quite a surreal moment in Cambodia, standing on a solid silver floor surrounded by gold statues, watching people put what little they had in the numerous donation boxes.
Tbh though, I'd be surprised if people in a poorer country weren't more money hungry than the West. If I was born into a country where your next meal was never guaranteed, I think I'd be keen to amass as much personal wealth as possible too. |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| sigmoid wrote: |
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| I turn to see a tall American fellow smiling. |
You're denying a whole nation their humanity and dignity.
Anyway, are sure he wasn't Canadian? |
Canadians are (North) American. |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm With Stupid wrote: |
| kurtz wrote: |
| Being largely Buddhist, a religion of renouncing material possessions, it's quite sickening what the Vietnamese have become; as money hungry and consumer driven as the West. |
Well the West was built on Christianity, which is also supposedly about giving up material possessions. All of these religions are the same. Telling others to give up material possessions while constantly sticking the begging bowl in people's faces asking for money. I had quite a surreal moment in Cambodia, standing on a solid silver floor surrounded by gold statues, watching people put what little they had in the numerous donation boxes.
Tbh though, I'd be surprised if people in a poorer country weren't more money hungry than the West. If I was born into a country where your next meal was never guaranteed, I think I'd be keen to amass as much personal wealth as possible too. |
True, but cashing in on Western guilt isn't a nice way to earn a dollar. This is as low as it gets; it's not in Vietnam but wouldn't surprise me at all this kind of thing happens here.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/14/orphans-cambodia-aids-holidays-madonna |
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Oh My God
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Am I an ugly expat? Yeah, but most of the VN think I'm quite handsome. LOL
Hey Monkey, don't you think you're making a lot out of a small incident OR are you trying to raise awareness within our expat community?
I think it's the later, heaven forbid any of us become bitter! LOL
But that's OK, whatever you're passionate about should serve to make us all a little bit more aware. LOL |
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DNK
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 236
Location: the South
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the touts, I am never quite sure how politely to treat them. Seems that whenever you actually say anything other than "no" or even make eye contact, they use it as an excuse to badger you for an extra 10 seconds believing you can be convinced that their plastic sunglasses are really worth buying, even if you've been here for a long time obviously (dressed in business casual with a bag, not a tourist at least) and yet aren't wearing any plastic sunglasses. Or I love sitting reading a photocopied e-book and having them trying to sell me a worse photocopying of Lonely Planet. Oh really, there are some caves nearby HCMC? I never would have known, let me buy 3!
But the issue is I would like to treat them with some respect, but the second I do they use it as a reason to treat me with less. I don't like having to barely recognize someone's existence and wave them away with a "no", but anything else just brings on more of a pitch.
That said, shoeshiners are bar-none the worst touts by a long shot, and I have little issue getting angry with them. Maybe it's because my shoes look so ungodly dirty, but they're not getting one cent out of me. Actually had one start shining my shoes after I repeatedly told him "no" and then just ignored him and looked away for about 3 minutes...
Anyone know where to buy new shoes in size 12 (US), by the way, outside of Vincom or Dr Martin's or whatever, at least? |
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I'm With Stupid
Joined: 03 Sep 2010
Posts: 432
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| How much does shoe shining actually cost? I bought one of those Kiwi bottles for about 20k and it's lasted me ages. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| I'm With Stupid wrote: |
| How much does shoe shining actually cost? I bought one of those Kiwi bottles for about 20k and it's lasted me ages. |
A Vietnamese person would pay about 5,000 dong.
| DNK wrote: |
Regarding the touts, I am never quite sure how politely to treat them. Seems that whenever you actually say anything other than "no" or even make eye contact, they use it as an excuse to badger you for an extra 10 seconds believing you can be convinced that their plastic sunglasses are really worth buying, even if you've been here for a long time obviously (dressed in business casual with a bag, not a tourist at least) and yet aren't wearing any plastic sunglasses. Or I love sitting reading a photocopied e-book and having them trying to sell me a worse photocopying of Lonely Planet. Oh really, there are some caves nearby HCMC? I never would have known, let me buy 3!
But the issue is I would like to treat them with some respect, but the second I do they use it as a reason to treat me with less. I don't like having to barely recognize someone's existence and wave them away with a "no", but anything else just brings on more of a pitch.
That said, shoeshiners are bar-none the worst touts by a long shot, and I have little issue getting angry with them. Maybe it's because my shoes look so ungodly dirty, but they're not getting one cent out of me. Actually had one start shining my shoes after I repeatedly told him "no" and then just ignored him and looked away for about 3 minutes... |
Hear, hear! I was standing in the street once in Hanoi using my mobile phone when a shoe shine tout approached me. The fact that I was on the phone was, to him, entirely irrelevant. He asked me if I wanted a shoe shine and I shook my head and waved him away. So he asked me again and he received the same response. He then proceeded to crouch down by my feet and offer his professional opinion about the state of my footwear. This was something along the lines of: "Oohhh, very dirty!". I guess to reassure me that he knew his business, he then tried to poke my feet with his fingers. For some reason, it was around this particular point that I kind of lost my temper  .
| DNK wrote: |
Anyone know where to buy new shoes in size 12 (US), by the way, outside of Vincom or Dr Martin's or whatever, at least? |
I've got pretty large feet as well and, as I try to avoid buying low quality shoes (you are much better off spending the money for quality IMHO), shoe shopping in Vietnam is, for me, a real hassle. Earlier this year, I needed some new business shoes and I spent an afternoon trying to find a good pair. Other posters here might know more about this than me, but I got nowhere. Ended up buying a pair when I was in the Philippines on holiday. |
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Jbhughes
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:45 am Post subject: |
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I would say I'm often an 'ugly' foreigner as, like others, I've had all sorts of money extorted out of me due to the colour of my skin.
Perhaps talking about opportunities to be umm... 'beautiful' foreigners could balance out the conversation a little. The experience about the 'Friends' restaurant in Phnom Penh is great.
What myself and my friends like to do is reward those that treat us well.
While we're on the subject of shoes, one good example of how we operate is what happened after one of friends got a pair made. The price was fair, the quality good and there were no issues dealing with the cobbler. Subsequently, he's had another pair made, I've had a pair made and another friend is getting some done too.
Food shops are a great example of being able to vote with your feet. We have a number of food shops that we frequent on a regular basis. They've treated us well, allowed us to pay the normal price and are being rewarded with regular custom. Other food shops won't see any of us darken their door again, as they've overcharged.
Motorbike shops would be another. There's one particularly nice chap that has always quoted the fairest prices and given the friendliest service. Whenever I have a problem that he can fix, or require some kind of maintenance that he can do, then I will go right across town just to make sure he's the one who gets the dong. I usually embarrass him with tips and probably end up paying more to him than I would to someone who just tries to rip me off. However, he's a quite wonderful and fair man who has always treated myself and others well and I'm more than happy to pay a little more, even if it does embarrass him and he insists that I should pay the 'người quen' price.
I've started to tip recently if I get good service anywhere, whereas before I wouldn't, I find this polar opposite of bawling at someone and throwing money on the floor amongst some swear words (shamefully my behaviour at someone trying to shaft me) makes me feel a little better about where I find myself on the UGLY / beautiful scale. |
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bludevil96
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Lip service |
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| snollygoster wrote: |
Vietnamese are Buddists? In name only, and that mixed with a lot of Ancestor Worship, animism, and money worship.
In the south there is a large Catholic contingent- in the north, the "professed" religion is Buddhism. (thats what started the "Vietnam" or "American" war. It only later turned into a Commies V Capitalists thing.)
So, from the perspective of a practicing Buddhist, Vietnamese are Buddhist by lip-service, and when it suits the particular purpose. |
Ummm, there's a lot of theories out there but "religion" didn't start the war. I hope you're being facetious because I think you're a lot better than that Snolly. I might be an engineer/teacher, but I'm also a history buff as well. I'm not going to hijack this like the last person that got his premier membership canceled so I'll just throw out my two cents. I think the OP was just letting out some steam and was disappointed to see something like that happened. Maybe in 5 yrs, he/she will be that person but things like this needs to be said. It needs to remind us that there's still good left and that we can't just generalized and paint people with the same brush.
I have used the same "what if you found a bag of money..." to facilitate talking as well but found it exactly the opposite to your results; so what happened? I teach to educated people and most are first generation college/Univ grads; perhaps that's the difference. Their reasoning is that karma seems to play a big factor and what they find that isn't theirs will somehow, might cause unfortunate illnesses to them or their family or that it's put there by some criminals and they will come back for it. Even when I suggested that the police will keep it for themselves and it didn't faze them the least. Do I believe them? to be honest, no, but what would YOU do with that money? I sure as hell wouldn't take it to the police but that's me. I've given money back lots of time and the people were always appreciative and even embarrassed to find that they gave me too much, but I know in the back of their mind that a local would never think twice of short changing them. It's reality but it's not an excuse to put down and generalize a whole race of people. So out of this, we know at least 2 things: education and income plays a role.
There are plenty of stories of people being in an accident and got their bikes or money stolen. One recent case of a guy in Tan Binh Dist. who chased the thieves and managed to pushed their bikes down. His money, reported to be 70 mil-vnd spilled into the streets. The people in the area around him turned into piranhas at a cow buffet. The victim was injured and couldn't do anything to stop this rampage. That's the ugly side of VN and poor people. If anyone wants to debate historic topics or religion of VN, I'm more than happy to do it on a different thread but please keep to the facts; Foxnews facts are not allowed. |
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DNK
Joined: 22 Jan 2007
Posts: 236
Location: the South
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| What was that guy doing with 70M on a motorbike, apparently not very well secured at that? I know it's not a huge sum of money, but I wouldn't ride around with it in a bag locked to the front of my bike either, which I assume is what happened as I don't know how this works out otherwise. |
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Beautiful Loser
Joined: 29 May 2011
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Larger shoes can be found at the "Tax Store", at the intersection of Nguyen Hue St and Le Loi St in District 1. There are shoe vendors on the third level. I've been able to get 4 pairs of 12's there.
This story is a re-post of a blog entry from 2008, as others have pointed out. |
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bludevil96
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| DNK wrote: |
| What was that guy doing with 70M on a motorbike, apparently not very well secured at that? I know it's not a huge sum of money, but I wouldn't ride around with it in a bag locked to the front of my bike either, which I assume is what happened as I don't know how this works out otherwise. |
Apparently, someone had scoped the victim's activity at the bank. My guess is that one of the security guards tipped off the gang as he was withdrawing money from the teller. The victim, for some reason, shoved the big wad in his pockets, which is a stupid thing to do. Anyways, they ambushed him once he drove away. They try to fake like an accident by bumping into him with their bikes. Once he stopped, another bike came up and grabbed the loot from his pockets. Then another bike unsuccessfully tries to take the keys from his ignition. When this failed, he gave chase after them. I believe there were 7 or 8 people involved. Generally speaking, Vietnamese are careless with money and are usually victims for this.
Just for reference, be careful when you're using the ATMs during off hours especially those near a cafe or away from businesses. Use it as quickly as you can since standing there a long time may indicate that you're taking out a lot of money. Avoid ATMs were xe om drivers are sitting nearby observing; they might be in on it. Many of the younger security guards are ex-cons since that's pretty much what they're capable of doing legitimately to stay out of prison and my guess is that they're the culprit behind a lot these tipoffs. |
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bludevil96
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:18 am Post subject: Shoeshines |
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A Vietnamese person would pay about 5,000 dong.
Actually Sarge, the current going rate is 10K. Damn inflation... |
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