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Inflames
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 486
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 Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Using Japanese with young students, opinions? |
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| Sour Grape wrote: |
| If the teacher is doing their job properly (not inferring for a second that you aren't) then the students should be interested in him/her, and want to know more about them, their country, their lives, culture etc, especially for Japanese kids who have very few opportunities to talk to foreigners. |
I don't agree with that at all. For one, the primary goal of English teachers is to teach English. Many schools consider learning about culture to be a secondary goal (one that most of the students show little interest in). Children of the age the OP is teaching probably have very little knowledge of Japanese culture (or even things outside of their daily life), much less a desire to learn about whatever else there is out there. |
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Sour Grape
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| Well, yes, they won't be wanting to know too much about the finer points of foreign culture. But they will know that the OP is different, and be curious enough to ask Do you have... or Do you like questions at that stage. And I think that having to speak to the English teacher in English is a good habit for them to get into. |
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natsume
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 409
Location: Chongqing, China
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:34 am Post subject: Re: Using Japanese with young students, opinions? |
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| Inflames wrote: |
| Children of the age the OP is teaching probably have very little knowledge of Japanese culture (or even things outside of their daily life), much less a desire to learn about whatever else there is out there. |
Possibly one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on these boards. |
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Osiyo
Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 34
Location: NC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:29 am Post subject: |
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I use Japanese all the time with my young students. It's just a lot easier when trying to give directions or explain a game, and also when trying to point out differences in phrases/vocabulary.
For example, how do I explain the difference between "want" and "like" without using the students' own language? |
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OneJoelFifty
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 463
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Slightly different for me as an ALT in a junior high school, but I almost never use Japanese in class. The odd funny comment under my breath to students that aren't good at English and complain (like "muri ja nai yo!") that they find funny and help me build a slight rapport, but little more than that.
My company doesn't have a policy on it as far as I know, but my teachers from last year were keen for me to always explain things in easy English (I couldn't speak Japanese anyway! Hardly can now in fact...). I've found that if it's too difficult to explain in English with a demonstration then there's a good chance it's overly complicated anyway. One thing I often do is simply ask "Do you understand? Raise your hand." and ask a student to explain in Japanese, and give them a bigger than normal sticker. The JTE is on hand to make sure if needed.
I do speak Japanese to them at lunchtimes and stuff, but honestly they are so used to me speaking only English that just saying I'll take the "gomi" after lunch gets gasps of surprise. I also find that even if I ask a question in English, then have to ask it in Japanese because they don't understand, they always search for the reply in English.
If my Japanese was good I'd be chatting away to them in it outside the classroom regularly. I think that's a stupid rule. As well as all the reasons mentioned, I imagine the parents would also like to think of the English-speaking ALT providing a completely English service. |
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Sour Grape
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 241
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Osiyo wrote: |
| For example, how do I explain the difference between "want" and "like" without using the students' own language? |
This is a joke, right? |
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Osiyo
Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 34
Location: NC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Sour Grape wrote: |
This is a joke, right? |
Nope! |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Osiyo wrote: |
| For example, how do I explain the difference between "want" and "like" without using the students' own language? |
It really isn't difficult, Osiyo. Eikaiwa teachers who barely speak a word of Japanese have to teach this kind of thing all the time. Try feeding cookies to the Cookie Monster until he can't eat another bite. (likes, but doesn't want) Then the Cookie Monster will get indigestion, so he needs to take foul-tasting medicine. (wants, but doesn't like) |
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Inflames
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 486
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Using Japanese with young students, opinions? |
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| natsume wrote: |
| Inflames wrote: |
| Children of the age the OP is teaching probably have very little knowledge of Japanese culture (or even things outside of their daily life), much less a desire to learn about whatever else there is out there. |
Possibly one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on these boards. |
How so?
For example, put a map of the world in front of kindergarteners and ask them to locate Japan. See how many of them can do it. Or, to make it even easier, ask them to locate their city on a map of Japan.
Give them pictures of food (probably the most of the culture they're familiar with) and have them sort out where something is from (Japan or overseas). This simple activity will show how much they know about their own culture. |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Jawful wrote: |
| Cool Teacher wrote: |
Yeah but sometimes you can say "what does jiji mean? Hmmm maybe I will ask your homeroom teacher" and then ask them and have the homeroom teacher dispcline them.  I did that before wehn someone called me hage and I'm not even hage I don't think  Another teacher that I know has some class wehre the junior highs were saying "omeko". She had no clue whet the word meant even thought her Japanese is really good much better than mine but wehn she asked the teacher what the word meant the homeroom teacher literally jumped out of her skin.  And she went up and rollicked the little scallywags for their desgraceflul language and I discovered a new word. But remember that if you let on you can speak Japanese the students can stilll try to work out just how much you know.  |
But even if you take this approach, you're still keeping one massive wall between you and your students. Did you ever have a teacher growing up that you couldn't talk to? Isn't the concept itself just weird? Students can learn so much more than just English from us. They can gain from our experiences, our non-Japaneseness, and our personalities. Some kids just want to talk to their teachers and ask questions. Why do we need to be in the position where we can't just answer them ourselves? If you are allowed to build a rapport with students outside of the classroom, wouldn't you be in a position to teach them more IN the classroom? My Spanish teacher kept a Spanish-only rule in the classroom (aside from explaining grammar) but outside of class she was fun to talk to about her travels abroad and things she's done. We can do that too. Most of these kids have barely been out of their home cities let alone overseas.
So while I agree that an all English class (with some L1 used to explain certain difficult concepts or to save a bit of time) is appropriate, it's outside the classroom that I think we should not only be able to, but even encouraged to talk and build relationships with our students.
Imagine the kids that walk away with fond memories of their ALT and heard all the cool stories of his or her home country. That experience alone could cause them to study harder and maybe choose to study abroad. That's the ultimate win for our goal of teaching them English. Pushing beyond the 1-3 hours a week most JHS or HS kids get. I think it's a win-win.
I think the biggest thing is that they don't trust what we will say or do once they are no longer translating. They don't trust our level of language use or maybe that we will step on cultural toes. That is offensive to me as a human being, quite honestly. They allow a Japanese person fresh from college to lead a class but don't let the foreigner on the same level have that kind of access...?
In my case, my first job was an ALT job and my company encouraged us to study Japanese and even use it in our schools. They thought half our job was cultural. I appreciated that and at the time my Japanese wasn't good enough to teach with it, I had fun and so did the students in our mixed conversations outside of class.
Now, after 5 and a half years, I'm teaching kindergarten kids who do NOT study at all, and have no image of English except for the game time with me once a week, and outside of that time I'm not allowed to even speak to my fellow teachers when they are around? Just doesn't make sense. |
Yeah I see what you mena.  |
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Cool Teacher
Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 930
Location: Here, There and Everywhere! :D
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| Osiyo wrote: |
| For example, how do I explain the difference between "want" and "like" without using the students' own language? |
It really isn't difficult, Osiyo. Eikaiwa teachers who barely speak a word of Japanese have to teach this kind of thing all the time. Try feeding cookies to the Cookie Monster until he can't eat another bite. (likes, but doesn't want) Then the Cookie Monster will get indigestion, so he needs to take foul-tasting medicine. (wants, but doesn't like) |
That's super good!!!1  Defo gonna use it in future! |
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natsume
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 409
Location: Chongqing, China
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Using Japanese with young students, opinions? |
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| Inflames wrote: |
| natsume wrote: |
| Inflames wrote: |
| Children of the age the OP is teaching probably have very little knowledge of Japanese culture (or even things outside of their daily life), much less a desire to learn about whatever else there is out there. |
Possibly one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on these boards. |
How so?
For example, put a map of the world in front of kindergarteners and ask them to locate Japan. See how many of them can do it. Or, to make it even easier, ask them to locate their city on a map of Japan.
Give them pictures of food (probably the most of the culture they're familiar with) and have them sort out where something is from (Japan or overseas). This simple activity will show how much they know about their own culture. |
OK, agree to disagree. I just think if you only speak Japanese, have only mostly ever eaten Japanese food, have some familiarity with Japanese holidays and what they mean, are familiar with Japanese television, etc., even if you are 5 years old, you are certainly conversant with Japanese culture in a profound way. And I have experience with early elementary students who are quite interested, granted in a childish (childlike?) way, about American "culture". (I am not sure we are defining that term in the same way.)
I, certainly, have found a lot to learn about Japanese culture from younger kids. |
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Osiyo
Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 34
Location: NC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Pitarou wrote: |
| It really isn't difficult, Osiyo. Eikaiwa teachers who barely speak a word of Japanese have to teach this kind of thing all the time. Try feeding cookies to the Cookie Monster until he can't eat another bite. (likes, but doesn't want) Then the Cookie Monster will get indigestion, so he needs to take foul-tasting medicine. (wants, but doesn't like) |
Haha, I like that. But I still feel like trying to pull that off would be difficult compared to just using Japanese to convey the difference. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but at least I know my kids understand the meaning of what they are learning. |
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Calico
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 54
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Osiyo wrote: |
| Pitarou wrote: |
| It really isn't difficult, Osiyo. Eikaiwa teachers who barely speak a word of Japanese have to teach this kind of thing all the time. Try feeding cookies to the Cookie Monster until he can't eat another bite. (likes, but doesn't want) Then the Cookie Monster will get indigestion, so he needs to take foul-tasting medicine. (wants, but doesn't like) |
Haha, I like that. But I still feel like trying to pull that off would be difficult compared to just using Japanese to convey the difference. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but at least I know my kids understand the meaning of what they are learning. |
I usually use gestures (pulling to myself to say I want something, while smiling a lot to indicate I like something ((this is a gesture we use for like in all my classes so it's pre-established)) and then making up situations in which i like something but don't want it, etc.) and use the words until it starts clicking. For younger students I have had to clarify using JApanese though. I noticed in almost all my classes when I got them that the kids thought "want" meant "kirai" which was...woooah no, ha.
Pretty much everything else I feel about this subject has been said already (I'm a fan of quick explanations in Japanese just to move on without doing a song and dance in English for five minutes, of which onnly a couple students will ever understand) but something I've noticed with my coworkers is that the prevailing idea is to not even let their kids know they speak/understand Japanese at all. Even if I wanted to present that, I couldn't anyway, because all my JTEs have told my students and their parents that I speak and understand Japanese at near-conversational fluency anyway. It's actually made a lot of parents extremely happy because they knew they can talk to me about what's going on with their kids even if they don't know any English themselves. Since I work in a particular eikaiwa where I'm the only adult in the entire building usually, this makes a lot of parents feel easier about leaving their kids with me.
Usually I've noticed I'm more likely to use Japanese, if any, with younger classes, especially when it comes down to safety issues. |
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Pitarou
Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 1116
Location: Narita, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Osiyo wrote: |
| Pitarou wrote: |
| It really isn't difficult, Osiyo. Eikaiwa teachers who barely speak a word of Japanese have to teach this kind of thing all the time. Try feeding cookies to the Cookie Monster until he can't eat another bite. (likes, but doesn't want) Then the Cookie Monster will get indigestion, so he needs to take foul-tasting medicine. (wants, but doesn't like) |
Haha, I like that. But I still feel like trying to pull that off would be difficult compared to just using Japanese to convey the difference. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but at least I know my kids understand the meaning of what they are learning. |
A lot of teachers say they use L1 to help the pupils feel more confident, but the real reason is because it makes the teacher feel more confident. And that's a pretty good reason: who would want to move on with a lesson if they're not sure they've been understood?
If your only aim is to convey the difference between "like" and "want" as quickly and as accurately as possible then of course L1 is the fastest way, but you're also trying to teach them how to use the language. That means drilling and practising. If the drills and practice reinforce the meaning as well as the form then it's okay to skimp on the presentation a little, because they'll pick it up later.
I also think that it's really important to explain to the kids what they should be doing in English. Of course that will slow things down sometimes, but there is a huge payoff in the kids listening skills. Best of all is when they start using your classroom language themselves.
There's a lot more I could say on the subject -- and I should add that I'm certainly not 100% opposed to using L1 -- but I really should be in bed by now.
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