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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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 Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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As I posted way back when (on page 1 of this thread):
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I've had a lot of good luck along the way, - - and have put in some work to keep upgrading my qualifications and credentials.
I think it's generally true that those teachers who are content to remain at entry-level in terms of qualifications often end up with some (maybe mostly financial) regrets. |
If one stays at entry-level in terms of qualifications, one can expect to remain there on the pay scale as well, and fair enough. It's true for most jobs in education. |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: ..anyone out there enjoying themselves? |
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| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| I have been in TEFL for 7 years. I am now pretty much done with it. |
Same here Professor. In Latin America there is not REAL money in it. Oh, and it is NOT good for the soul if a person is living a laidback lifestyle yet has to always worry about how they are going to pay rent and/or eat. I taught in Mexico City for YEARS and there was NEVER enough money there. Part of the problem was the FACT that a lot of the schools just would not pay the whole amount owed to the teacher on time. Try explaining to your landlord that you will pay your rent in 2 weeks because the school you work for didn't pay you on time. Let me know how that works out for you guys.
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| The whole industry is a sham in so many ways. From the rip-off TEFL certs that pump out "teachers" to the language schools that only care about a profit and those use both the teachers and students. |
Interesting points Prof. Gringo...interesting.
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| If you want a long-term career teaching either in the US or abroad, better off to get a MA and take the high road. |
Thanks for that insight.
| Prof.Gringo wrote: |
| you better have an exit plan so you got something to fall back on. |
I second that. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Once again, for emphasis:
If one stays at entry-level in terms of qualifications, one can expect to remain there on the pay scale as well, and fair enough. It's true for most jobs in education. |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| If one stays at entry-level in terms of qualifications, one can expect to remain there on the pay scale as well, and fair enough. It's true for most jobs in education. |
Entry-level? Qualifications?
I'll take this from the perspective of one who has lived and worked in Mexico City. Entry level EFL jobs in Mexioc City pay VERY LITTLE. Sad but true. Upward mobility can be a problem in Mexico City, especially for one who is from the United States. This was my personal experience. Most Mexicans I met had no love for the Americans and only studied English because it would help them in getting a promotion or more job security.
Hard to move up from that "entry-level" position with so much nepotism going on.
Qualifications? For Mexico City I'm guessing you're talking about the powerful, almighty CELTA. Let's see the cost of some of these "qualifications".
CELTA in Mexico City...$1,700.00 DOLLARS
Another possible "qualification" could be a Masters degree. From the U.S. figure somewhere around....$25,000 to 45,000.00 DOLLARS
After some YEARS of teaching experience one could apply for the DELTA. I'm not sure the price on that one but I'm sure it's more than the CELTA, so let's just say $2,000.00 DOLLARS.
Then there are a lot of other little qualifications one could get but I'm not sure of the price range on those. So to review...for a person coming from the U.S. going to Mexico City for example to teach EFL. In order to get out of that "entry-level" gig and move up to a coordinator (let's not forget the nepotism that is alive and well in Latin America), one would need some or all or even MORE of the "qualifications" I mentioned above?
So, for the person going to teach EFL in Mexico City for example, try to have to following "qualifications" so you can eventually get out of that "entry-level" position.
Bachelor degree....$30,000 to 45,000 DOLLARS
Masters degree.... $30,000 to $45,000 DOLLARS
CELTA from IH in Mexico City....$1,700 DOLLARS
Figure on paying $30,000 for EACH degree from a university in the U.S., plus the CELTA from IH in Mexico City and you're looking at $61,700 DOLLARS.
If one only holds a Bachelor degree and an EFL certificate, they may NOT have those "qualifications" mentioned. So you go to Mexico City with your bachelor only and you still may have student loans in the area of $30,000 DOLLARS. Trust me...you won't be able to pay on those with an EFL salary in Mexico City. OK, so you get the CELTA and remember it is currently $1,700 DOLLARS in Mexico City. How does one pay for that unless they go with the money already.
So you see, "qualifications" don't mean much if it takes YEARS and THOUSANDS of DOLLARS to get them. I am curious though...how much could a TEFLer make in Mexico City AFTER having obtained all of these "qualifications"?? Hopefully a lot or it just might not be worth it. Remember, this is from the perspective of one coming from the U.S. and going to Mexico City to be a TEFLer.
Those "qualifications aren't looking so good now. Of course if one were to go to another country around the globe, things like salary MIGHT be worth it, but Mexico City? Tough call, huh? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Having gone back and re-read the OP, I remain unaware that the OP was focused on Mexico City. My experience is mostly in Europe, where most new teachers have at least a BA and a CELTA or equivalent to start, and where wages are also subsistence-level at this stage.
If one wants to move up the ladder in any education-related field in most job markets, it does in fact take additional qualifications. Usually a BA comes first before starting in the field, followed by a CELTA, and a DELTA or MA is commonly the next step, depending on whether one wants to go into teacher training/DOS positions or to move into university jobs.
I don't think (nor do most teachers or employers) that a CELTA is anything more than an entry-level qualification, just to be really clear.
Again, to move up any ladder in any job market in any educational field, additional quals are needed. Why should they not be? What can one do in, say the US, with just a BA and a 30-day cert course like a CELTA?? This won't get anyone much beyond lower middle class at best there, either.
Realistic expectations are always useful......why would anyone expect to move up the scale in any job market without qualifications?
It's been a long, long time since just being a native English speaker was enough to secure a 'teacher' a middle-class or better lifestyle in most job markets. Again, fair enough. Anyone who still believes in the 'native speaker = big bucks' myth is fooling themselves. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Bang on Spiral, and pretty much the same in Mexico City.
And there are plenty of routes to go, through the British Council and the DELTA if that is your cup of tea.
I'm surprised to see such linear thinking on the degree scale, as if everything is done in a vacuum. On the employment ladder here for bilingual and international schools, if one goes that route, is professional development with all kinds of courses and further certifications you can get. My girlfriend is on that track through her school as are several friends earning their master's through US universities. I think the GF paid just under 5000 us for her first MS (the school paid the other half) and her MS in education administration will come in about the same.
The pay increase after getting the first MS was more than what it cost her.
Like I said, you take the long view and it pays off. Opportunities are there if you know what you're looking for. |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
| I remain unaware that the OP was focused on Mexico City. |
I used Mexico City as an example because thet was where I lived and taught.
| spiral78 wrote: |
| My experience is mostly in Europe, where most new teachers have at least a BA and a CELTA or equivalent to start, and where wages are also subsistence-level at this stage. |
Nothing wrong with that but one needs to make sure they will have a nice salary to justify going into major debt for those "qualifications".
| spiral78 wrote: |
| If one wants to move up the ladder in any education-related field in most job markets, it does in fact take additional qualifications. |
True sir, but the person needs to do some RESEARCH ahead of time to make sure the investment will be worth it. For example, a person gets a bachelor degree ($30,000 DOLLARS) and then the CELTA in Mexico City ($1,700 DOLLARS). That's a total of 31,700 DOLLARS. It would only be worth it if on the other end, there i sa NICE, REWARDING salary waiting for the TEFLer. IF, however, the salary isn't much better after having gone into MAJOR DEBT, TIME, AND EFFORT to get those "qualifications", they simply are not worth it nor could one afford it.
| spiral78 wrote: |
| I don't think (nor do most teachers or employers) that a CELTA is anything more than an entry-level qualification, just to be really clear. |
Good point. Thanks. That is one expensive "entry-level qualification" amigo.
| spiral78 wrote: |
| Again, to move up any ladder in any job market in any educational field, additional quals are needed. |
Agreed. That's why it is so CRITICAL for the person thinking about doing it to make sure the salaries will be MUCH BETTER than they are at the entry-level or it won't be worth the debt, time, and effort.
Thanks for the additional knowledge, spiral78.   |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| I think the GF paid just under 5000 us for her first MS (the school paid the other half) and her MS in education administration will come in about the same. |
She paid just under 5,000 DOLLARS for her first MS? The school paid the other half? So the school paid $15,000 DOLLARS for her MS? A Masters degree from ANY university in the U.S. is going to cost AT LEAST $18,000 to $30,000 DOLLARS. That would mean her school had to pay the balance after the $5,000.
Schools don't pay for the education of a teacher unless that teacher HAS to work for them for a sEt number of years. There's always strings attached.
What about her bachelor degree? If she is from the U.S. there's another $25,000 to $40,000 DOLLARS. |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| I think the GF paid just under 5000 us for her first MS (the school paid the other half) and her MS in education administration will come in about the same. |
What school paid for her bachelor?  That is GREAT that the school paid all of that for her! Viva to the private schools in Mexico City!! 
Too bad there aren't nearly enough of those jobs for all of the TEFLer's going to Mexico City.  |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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5+5=10, so 10K total. Perhaps there is a different price at the institutional level as these are groups of dozens of people doing courses mixed online/onsite in Mexico City at the same time.
She is Canadian and her bachelor's is from a Canadian university and I think that was $16,000 CDN. She paid for that.
Contracts in Mexico City at bilingual and international schools are generally for 2 years. I think that's similar around the world? Anyone know?
| Quote: |
| Too bad there aren't nearly enough of those jobs for all of the TEFLer's going to Mexico City. |
Not too many...30 jobs or so per year at her particular school and I'd guess no more 200-300 among schools of similar calibre, per year.
Last edited by Guy Courchesne on Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AGoodStory
Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
5+5=10, so 10K total. Perhaps there is a different price at the institutional level as these are groups of dozens of people doing courses mixed online/onsite in Mexico City at the same time.
She is Canadian and her bachelor's is from a Canadian university and I think that was $16,000 CDN. She paid for that.
Contracts in Mexico City and bilingual and international schools are generally for 2 years. I think that's similar around the world? Anyone know?
| Quote: |
| Too bad there aren't nearly enough of those jobs for all of the TEFLer's going to Mexico City. |
Not too many...30 jobs or so per year at her particular school and I'd guess no more 200-300 among schools of similar calibre, per year. |
Guy, you are spending time trying to convince the unconvinceable. If you pay attention to our Educator friend's thematic content, syntax, key phrasing, and, in particular, errors, I think you might recognize his other incarnation. |
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SahanRiddhi
Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| True sir, but the person needs to do some RESEARCH ahead of time to make sure the investment will be worth it. For example, a person gets a bachelor degree ($30,000 DOLLARS) and then the CELTA in Mexico City ($1,700 DOLLARS). That's a total of 31,700 DOLLARS. It would only be worth it if on the other end, there i sa NICE, REWARDING salary waiting for the TEFLer. IF, however, the salary isn't much better after having gone into MAJOR DEBT, TIME, AND EFFORT to get those "qualifications", they simply are not worth it nor could one afford it. |
| Quote: |
| That's why it is so CRITICAL for the person thinking about doing it to make sure the salaries will be MUCH BETTER than they are at the entry-level or it won't be worth the debt, time, and effort. |
Truest words ever spoken on Dave's. But a concept that a lot of people seem to have trouble comprehending.
Let me add, it is not only the cost of the education that one needs to earn back ($31,700 in this example). If you are going to school full-time, or even part-time, for that matter, there are lost wages to be considered. If you spend a year full-time on campus doing an MA, then how much might you have earned that year if you'd remained in the workforce? $30,000? $45,000? Got to figure that number into your calculations, too. If you go part-time, how much might you have made with a second job in those hours? Gotta figure that in.
It's going to take a long time to recoup all those lost earnings and the tuition. It is VERY, VERY HARD to come out ahead on the MATESOL unless you plan to spend several years in the Middle East. Not my idea of a good time.
Last edited by SahanRiddhi on Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Incarnations, AGoodStory, plural!!! That has been noted by all.
Going back to the OP, I think yes, many people are enjoying themselves, as they should if it is something they really want to do, and are not motivated by money alone. Also, as in any area of work, the cream will rise to the top, and maybe the money will come too!
For sure, negativity will not help one succeed. If it is not your thing, there are many other fish to fry! |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| SahanRiddhi wrote: |
| Quote: |
| True sir, but the person needs to do some RESEARCH ahead of time to make sure the investment will be worth it. For example, a person gets a bachelor degree ($30,000 DOLLARS) and then the CELTA in Mexico City ($1,700 DOLLARS). That's a total of 31,700 DOLLARS. It would only be worth it if on the other end, there i sa NICE, REWARDING salary waiting for the TEFLer. IF, however, the salary isn't much better after having gone into MAJOR DEBT, TIME, AND EFFORT to get those "qualifications", they simply are not worth it nor could one afford it. |
| Quote: |
| That's why it is so CRITICAL for the person thinking about doing it to make sure the salaries will be MUCH BETTER than they are at the entry-level or it won't be worth the debt, time, and effort. |
Truest words ever spoken on Dave's. But a concept that a lot of people seem to have trouble comprehending.
Let me add, it is not only the cost of the education that one needs to earn back ($31,700 in this example). If you are going to school full-time, or even part-time, for that matter, there are lost wages to be considered. If you spend a year full-time on campus doing an MA, then how much might you have earned that year if you'd remained in the workforce? $30,000? $45,000? Got to figure than number into your calculations, too. If you go part-time, how much might you have made with a second job in those hours? Gotta figure that in.
It's going to take a long time to recoup all those lost earnings and the tuition. It is VERY, VERY HARD to come out ahead on the MATESOL unless you plan to spend several years in the Middle East. Not my idea of a good time. |
Well said!
Now, are there any stats on the turnover rate for EFL teachers? Anybody? |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLeducator wrote: |
| spiral78 wrote: |
| If one stays at entry-level in terms of qualifications, one can expect to remain there on the pay scale as well, and fair enough. It's true for most jobs in education. |
After some YEARS of teaching experience one could apply for the DELTA. I'm not sure the price on that one but I'm sure it's more than the CELTA, so let's just say $2,000.00 DOLLARS. |
FYI cost of the DELTA, all 3 modules and exams is $4,600 in the USA. Does not include any travel or other related expenses as well as loss income. |
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