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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:14 am Post subject: |
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natsume,
I would lump them into my own category #1 (substitute "work or further schooling" for the single word "work"). |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| Landon wrote: |
| I do not see how teaching EFL can work out well for someone that chooses to do this in mid-life or someone who chooses to do this for 10-15 years and wants to return to their home country after the age of about 35. [...] Judging from these last posts, it must be very difficult to return at the mid point in your career life and make those teaching EFL qualifications seem relevant in onward careers. |
You seem to be overlooking one of the main reasons why someone might choose to do EFL in their "mid-life" - the lack of work back home. I got into TEFL when I was in my mid 30s, mainly because I'd had enough of p/t, poorly paid work, stints of unemployment and no sign of things improving much. Fifteen years later I'm an editor in HK earning as much or more than most of my friends back home. TEFL isn't going to make you rich but it's a lot better then scratching a living in declining areas of the West. However, I would say this - if you get into TEFL you have to accept that it may end up being a one-way street. For me there's no realistic way of returning to work in the UK - to go back I would have to give up too much. |
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Matt_22
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Returning home isn't that difficult - as long as you've planned it right.
If you're just bouncing around on a Celta and unrelated BA from ESL job to ESL job, sure - you''re going to have problems.
But if you're like myself and a lot of my coworkers - ESL teachers who have gained teaching certifications and Master's degrees while abroad - you should have no problem going home and landing a teaching position.
I used to think about teaching overseas at international schools until hitting 50, then perhaps working at a public school in the US for 10 years just to get a bit of a pension (+ SS and Medicare). My personal goals have changed since then, but the path still exists. Consider also, at many schools it wouldn't be too difficult to throw $20k per year in a taxable account.
So just to toss out some hypotheticals:
A backpacking ESL teacher gets certified (debt free) by 30.
Saves 20k per year in a taxable account getting a real rate of return of 3%
Guy could go home at 50 with over 550k in assets, work 10 years without adding anything and it would project at 743k.
You can withdraw the 400k in principal assets tax free, pay 15% (by current capital gains rates) on the remaining 343k, and end up with $691k in cash that can be plunked into a COLA annuity or whatever tickles your fancy. On top of that you'd have a small COLA pension and monthly SS payment (taken early if need be) and medicare benefits.
You wouldn't be rich by any means, but that's damn comfortable for retirement at 60. Plus, the 20k/year savings figure is fairly conservative. Wouldn't be difficult to go beyond that, especially with a few years of experience. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Question on Reality of Saving |
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| Landon wrote: |
My question is, can this be possible? Are there really any EFL teachers that are living like kings? Do the people that are actually making a comforable living and saving money have other passive income streams back home, like growing retirement accounts or rental properties? I am starting to think my definition of "living like a king" or "saving lots of money" may be quite a bit different from others.
I assume we should first work on our retirement portfolios and collecting as much income property as possible now to supplement ourselves "living like kings" while we are abroad. |
I wouldn't say I'm living like royalty or saving heaps, but in addition to my income here as a teacher, I have a passive income from rental property as well as online income, so that helps.
Pension is another issue here where I live. A teacher just walked away with 45K after 7 years here. Not heaps, but it's something. That was just in pension. His savings were six figures. Depends how you live and how much you make.
As for going back home, I really don't know. I certainly hope I don't live a long time, though my grandfather is 92, will be 93 in about a month. As for me. I'm not yet 30 and have higher cholesterol than my dad, so I'm hoping to die young. 
I'm counting on property to be honest. My grandfather, the one who's 92, retired when he was 40 or 45 due to property. I figure I could do the same. Espeically with the housing market what it is now. Buy low, sell high. LIke stocks. Except I don't understand stocks. |
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Landon
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Perilla wrote: |
| Landon wrote: |
| I do not see how teaching EFL can work out well for someone that chooses to do this in mid-life or someone who chooses to do this for 10-15 years and wants to return to their home country after the age of about 35. [...] Judging from these last posts, it must be very difficult to return at the mid point in your career life and make those teaching EFL qualifications seem relevant in onward careers. |
You seem to be overlooking one of the main reasons why someone might choose to do EFL in their "mid-life" - the lack of work back home. I got into TEFL when I was in my mid 30s, mainly because I'd had enough of p/t, poorly paid work, stints of unemployment and no sign of things improving much. Fifteen years later I'm an editor in HK earning as much or more than most of my friends back home. TEFL isn't going to make you rich but it's a lot better then scratching a living in declining areas of the West. However, I would say this - if you get into TEFL you have to accept that it may end up being a one-way street. For me there's no realistic way of returning to work in the UK - to go back I would have to give up too much. |
This is interesting and somewhat encouraging although those are not the reasons we are choosing to TEFL. You say you started TEFL in your mid 30s and in only 15 years you are earning more than your peers back home? I will have to start looking closer into Hong Kong. As it goes now we cannot see how we can earn or save in Asia even a third of what we or our US peers currently make. We are passionate about this and really want to make this work, so we are hopeful. |
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Landon
Joined: 26 Sep 2011
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Matt_22 wrote: |
Returning home isn't that difficult - as long as you've planned it right.
If you're just bouncing around on a Celta and unrelated BA from ESL job to ESL job, sure - you''re going to have problems.
But if you're like myself and a lot of my coworkers - ESL teachers who have gained teaching certifications and Master's degrees while abroad - you should have no problem going home and landing a teaching position.
I used to think about teaching overseas at international schools until hitting 50, then perhaps working at a public school in the US for 10 years just to get a bit of a pension (+ SS and Medicare). My personal goals have changed since then, but the path still exists. Consider also, at many schools it wouldn't be too difficult to throw $20k per year in a taxable account.
So just to toss out some hypotheticals:
A backpacking ESL teacher gets certified (debt free) by 30.
Saves 20k per year in a taxable account getting a real rate of return of 3%
Guy could go home at 50 with over 550k in assets, work 10 years without adding anything and it would project at 743k.
You can withdraw the 400k in principal assets tax free, pay 15% (by current capital gains rates) on the remaining 343k, and end up with $691k in cash that can be plunked into a COLA annuity or whatever tickles your fancy. On top of that you'd have a small COLA pension and monthly SS payment (taken early if need be) and medicare benefits.
You wouldn't be rich by any means, but that's damn comfortable for retirement at 60. Plus, the 20k/year savings figure is fairly conservative. Wouldn't be difficult to go beyond that, especially with a few years of experience. |
Boy, there are a lot of hypotheticals there. I have been contributing the max amount allowed to a retirement stock account every year since the age of 17. Thats right 17. I am now 30 and have not yet seen close to the return you are hypothesizing. The market has been horrible here though.
Even if all of your hypotheticals go perfectly to plan (which will be impossible because realities of life, family and health do get in the way) and step into a world class job opportunity just starting out, the number you end up with is not near enough to retire on. Not in 30 years from today its not. $700K in assets for me to retire on at the age of 60 in 2042 is not going to last very long, even at a percentage of the comforts I enjoy now. And I would bet that realistically that number will be much lower. |
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EFLeducator
Joined: 16 Dec 2011
Posts: 595
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Landon wrote: |
| Matt_22 wrote: |
Returning home isn't that difficult - as long as you've planned it right.
If you're just bouncing around on a Celta and unrelated BA from ESL job to ESL job, sure - you''re going to have problems.
But if you're like myself and a lot of my coworkers - ESL teachers who have gained teaching certifications and Master's degrees while abroad - you should have no problem going home and landing a teaching position.
I used to think about teaching overseas at international schools until hitting 50, then perhaps working at a public school in the US for 10 years just to get a bit of a pension (+ SS and Medicare). My personal goals have changed since then, but the path still exists. Consider also, at many schools it wouldn't be too difficult to throw $20k per year in a taxable account.
So just to toss out some hypotheticals:
A backpacking ESL teacher gets certified (debt free) by 30.
Saves 20k per year in a taxable account getting a real rate of return of 3%
Guy could go home at 50 with over 550k in assets, work 10 years without adding anything and it would project at 743k.
You can withdraw the 400k in principal assets tax free, pay 15% (by current capital gains rates) on the remaining 343k, and end up with $691k in cash that can be plunked into a COLA annuity or whatever tickles your fancy. On top of that you'd have a small COLA pension and monthly SS payment (taken early if need be) and medicare benefits.
You wouldn't be rich by any means, but that's damn comfortable for retirement at 60. Plus, the 20k/year savings figure is fairly conservative. Wouldn't be difficult to go beyond that, especially with a few years of experience. |
Boy, there are a lot of hypotheticals there. I have been contributing the max amount allowed to a retirement stock account every year since the age of 17. Thats right 17. I am now 30 and have not yet seen close to the return you are hypothesizing. The market has been horrible here though.
Even if all of your hypotheticals go perfectly to plan (which will be impossible because realities of life, family and health do get in the way) and step into a world class job opportunity just starting out, the number you end up with is not near enough to retire on. Not in 30 years from today its not. $700K in assets for me to retire on at the age of 60 in 2042 is not going to last very long, even at a percentage of the comforts I enjoy now. And I would bet that realistically that number will be much lower. |
Great post, Landon. Real! |
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Matt_22
Joined: 26 Feb 2006
Posts: 193
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Landon wrote: |
| Matt_22 wrote: |
Returning home isn't that difficult - as long as you've planned it right.
If you're just bouncing around on a Celta and unrelated BA from ESL job to ESL job, sure - you''re going to have problems.
But if you're like myself and a lot of my coworkers - ESL teachers who have gained teaching certifications and Master's degrees while abroad - you should have no problem going home and landing a teaching position.
I used to think about teaching overseas at international schools until hitting 50, then perhaps working at a public school in the US for 10 years just to get a bit of a pension (+ SS and Medicare). My personal goals have changed since then, but the path still exists. Consider also, at many schools it wouldn't be too difficult to throw $20k per year in a taxable account.
So just to toss out some hypotheticals:
A backpacking ESL teacher gets certified (debt free) by 30.
Saves 20k per year in a taxable account getting a real rate of return of 3%
Guy could go home at 50 with over 550k in assets, work 10 years without adding anything and it would project at 743k.
You can withdraw the 400k in principal assets tax free, pay 15% (by current capital gains rates) on the remaining 343k, and end up with $691k in cash that can be plunked into a COLA annuity or whatever tickles your fancy. On top of that you'd have a small COLA pension and monthly SS payment (taken early if need be) and medicare benefits.
You wouldn't be rich by any means, but that's damn comfortable for retirement at 60. Plus, the 20k/year savings figure is fairly conservative. Wouldn't be difficult to go beyond that, especially with a few years of experience. |
Boy, there are a lot of hypotheticals there. I have been contributing the max amount allowed to a retirement stock account every year since the age of 17. Thats right 17. I am now 30 and have not yet seen close to the return you are hypothesizing. The market has been horrible here though.
Even if all of your hypotheticals go perfectly to plan (which will be impossible because realities of life, family and health do get in the way) and step into a world class job opportunity just starting out, the number you end up with is not near enough to retire on. Not in 30 years from today its not. $700K in assets for me to retire on at the age of 60 in 2042 is not going to last very long, even at a percentage of the comforts I enjoy now. And I would bet that realistically that number will be much lower. |
I think there is likely some recency bias in your post that should be pointed out. The last decade has been awful, but if you look at historical market returns, you see terrible decades peppered in between solid stretches of growth. It definitely isn't guaranteed to last forever, but investing in the market has been a very good long-term bet historically, and most 30 year returns have given well over 3% real.
And of course family matters, that's obvious. Hard to marry like an idiot and come out on top. But likely, by the time one has had a few kids, they'd be at a school that provided free education, insurance, and perhaps even airfares for (two) dependents. Not to mention the provided housing.
I really don't think the hypotheticals are that much of a stretch. There are plenty of international schools that allow for 20k/year of savings for a beginning teacher - especially at lower tier schools in China. Now, there could be problems saving that much if one isn't accustomed to living on a budget, and sticking to said budget. There could also be problems if someone wants to maintain that ego boost of being relatively wealthy upon returning home, because that definitely won't last.
As far as the numbers go .. 700k won't last? That's ludicrous. Granted, international school teachers forfeit things like social security and pension, but we can always make use of COLA annuities, and you could drop 7 100k blocks of cash into one of those - each paying out roughly $6000/year. That's $42,000 of FDIC-protected income that lasts forever - that would then be supplemented by the SS and small teacher pension I mentioned in my original hypothetical. That puts retirement income at over $50,000 plus medicare.
You won't want to live in NYC, but there are plenty of excellent alternatives. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| Matt_22 wrote: |
But if you're like myself and a lot of my coworkers - ESL teachers who have gained teaching certifications and Master's degrees while abroad - you should have no problem going home and landing a teaching position.
I used to think about teaching overseas at international schools until hitting 50, then perhaps working at a public school in the US for 10 years just to get a bit of a pension (+ SS and Medicare). My personal goals have changed since then, but the path still exists. Consider also, at many schools it wouldn't be too difficult to throw $20k per year in a taxable account. |
The problem is that some of us don't WANT to teach in intl schools. Been there, done that. I even looked at doing it again, just for the money. But I dread the thought of it. The majority of the people here on Dave's aren't intl school teachers. So where does that leave us?
I have three licenses and could teach at an intl school, but it's just not worth it for me. Doing something I hate just for the money.
| Landon wrote: |
| Boy, there are a lot of hypotheticals there. I have been contributing the max amount allowed to a retirement stock account every year since the age of 17. Thats right 17. I am now 30 and have not yet seen close to the return you are hypothesizing. The market has been horrible here though. |
There are other ways to save besides IRAs though. And while the market is horrible now, it'll go up if retirement's a long way off. And you've got to look into offshores accounts and stocks.
Last edited by naturegirl321 on Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:31 am Post subject: Re: Question on Reality of Saving |
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| naturegirl321 wrote: |
Buy low, sell high. |
I wish it was that easy! The one property purchase I have made in my life to date has gone down, down, down - and still going. Property doesn't always pay - unless perhaps if you have a crystal ball. |
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It's Scary!
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Question on Reality of Saving |
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| Perilla wrote: |
| I wish it was that easy! The one property purchase I have made in my life to date has gone down, down, down - and still going. Property doesn't always pay. |
Jeez! You make me feel like a property savant! We bought a piece of property (3-bedroom house w/an unattached "Mother-In-Law" suite for $108k in May 2004. Fixed it up a little bit and rented it out in July 2004. We kept the renter for six years and earned equity out of it every month. We kept the Mom-in-Law suite for our home base and the garage for our van for summers back at home. Still, keeping the "Big House" fully rented to the original renter.
We transitioned out of the Gulf after 16 years in 2010 and after redoing the hardwood floors sold the 66-year-old house for $138k. We hadn't slept a night in it for the seven years we owned it!
Bought a $133k in a different market and, after closing costs, realized that we traded a 66-year-old house for a 16-year-old house for...total cost to us?
$2600 dollars
Moral: Buy low, sell high..."Damn The Torpedoes, Full Steam Ahead!!!
It's all about timing and knowing the market that you're entering! |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| Matt_22 wrote: |
| But if you're like myself and a lot of my coworkers - ESL teachers who have gained teaching certifications and Master's degrees while abroad - you should have no problem going home and landing a teaching position. |
Matt, you obviously know little or nothing about the situation in the UK. The TEFL sector was always poor in the UK, these days it's completely screwed. The few decent TEFL-related jobs that still exist (mostly at unis, but even these positions are being consumed by language-mill cartels) are held by incumbent teachers who hold onto their positions for dear life -so there are very few re-entry routes for the TEFLer. (Btw, I have an MEd TESOL, ten years' teaching experience and uni-level experience in HK).
Someone might say OK, do a PGCE and get a regular state school teaching job. Forget that too - morale in the mainstream teaching sector is at an all-time low, but as with the uni positions, incumbent teachers are hanging onto their jobs for grim death because the alternative is no job at all. That's the state of the nation. Things will probably pick up eventually in the state school secor, but not for a few years. |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:16 am Post subject: Re: Question on Reality of Saving |
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| It's Scary! wrote: |
| Perilla wrote: |
| I wish it was that easy! The one property purchase I have made in my life to date has gone down, down, down - and still going. Property doesn't always pay. |
Jeez! You make me feel like a property savant! We bought a piece of property (3-bedroom house w/an unattached "Mother-In-Law" suite for $108k in May 2004. Fixed it up a little bit and rented it out in July 2004. We kept the renter for six years and earned equity out of it every month. We kept the Mom-in-Law suite for our home base and the garage for our van for summers back at home. Still, keeping the "Big House" fully rented to the original renter.
We transitioned out of the Gulf after 16 years in 2010 and after redoing the hardwood floors sold the 66-year-old house for $138k. We hadn't slept a night in it for the seven years we owned it!
Bought a $133k in a different market and, after closing costs, realized that we traded a 66-year-old house for a 16-year-old house for...total cost to us?
$2600 dollars
Moral: Buy low, sell high..."Damn The Torpedoes, Full Steam Ahead!!!
It's all about timing and knowing the market that you're entering! |
Good for you. I can list many friends who have also done very nicely out of property - and some who didn't. The point I'm making is that the market doesn't always go up and it isn't always that easy to predict when is a good or bad time. We bought late 2007 with the deal going through early 2008. With the benefit of hindsight it's so easy to say 'OMG why did you buy then?', but most market analysts at the time were still saying the rising market had years left to go. Ha!
To give another example, I know someone who bought property in Japan years after the market had crashed, back in the 90s. This person reckoned the market must have bottomed out, or nearly. But no - he's still in negative equity now, nearly 20 years after buying. |
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It's Scary!
Joined: 17 Apr 2011
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:21 am Post subject: I was there! |
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I was there when the bubble burst!
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| I know someone who bought property in Japan years after the market had crashed, back in the 90s. This person reckoned the market must have bottomed out, or nearly. But no - he's still in negative equity now, nearly 20 years after buying. |
With all due respect, that person was a fool!
It's how the bubble bursts! |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:41 am Post subject: Re: I was there! |
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| It's Scary! wrote: |
I was there when the bubble burst!
| Quote: |
| I know someone who bought property in Japan years after the market had crashed, back in the 90s. This person reckoned the market must have bottomed out, or nearly. But no - he's still in negative equity now, nearly 20 years after buying. |
With all due respect, that person was a fool!
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Know-it-alls have a habit of coming unstuck.
He's no fool and has made more money than either of us will probably make. He bought several years after the bubble burst, at a time when many experts reckoned the market was bottoming out. How wrong they were, but it's understandable that someone might have taken a shot at buying a property in Japan at that time.
I agree that buying property is one of the only ways, perhaps the only way that most of us have of making serious money. But even with caution you can be unlucky. |
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