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Jack Walker
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 412
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 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: erm |
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| dynow wrote: |
| Jack Walker wrote: |
| It's probably not as low as you'd think, but not as high as you'd imagined....if that makes sense! |
You made some sense right up to this point 
JW wrote:
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| all the teens have the modern tech gadgets and clothing and most of my old friends had the 50 inch plasmas,new cars,2 weeks in Turkey, a week in the alps skiing in winter, weekly mega shopping trips to Auchan and of course, the majority of young Poles are all real estate barons. |
Aside from the occasional real estate baron thing, I didn't see much of this. My students were mostly poor with crummy phones, no car (or a jalopy) and vacation generally involved packing 10 days worth of food into a backpack and a 11 hour train ride.
JW wrote:
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Most of them seemingly have 5 or 6 flats which they own outright and rent out without reporting the rent as income.
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my first apartment involved plenty of that, clear as day they were scheming. |
Dude,you're a fellow team"B" member....I expected more support! 
I hope you're not thinking of joining the evil team "A"!
I guess we all had different students and lived in different towns and worked for different compnies which would account for the discrepancies.
I can never recall dealing with a really poor student as the real poor people in Poland have enough to do to survive and certainly don't have the money for English lessons.
I did have lessons with a lot of private companies and dealt with their upper management, who were by all standards pretty wealthy.Most of my nightly language school students were either comfortable business types or college students being well supported by Tatas zloty or sweet Babcias pierogi and pension.  |
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dynow
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1080
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: erm |
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| Jack Walker wrote: |
I did have lessons with a lot of private companies and dealt with their upper management, who were by all standards pretty wealthy.Most of my nightly language school students were either comfortable business types or college students being well supported by Tatas zloty or sweet Babcias pierogi and pension. |
well sure. we've all had plenty of those students but they don't represent the average pole.
is it me....or did you have plenty of students that did something....not sure what exactly....but they were well off and even when you asked, you still weren't able to go home and explain to someone what that person did? MAN i had sooo many students like that. "wait......now what is it that you do?"  |
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Jack Walker
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 412
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: erm |
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| dynow wrote: |
| Jack Walker wrote: |
I did have lessons with a lot of private companies and dealt with their upper management, who were by all standards pretty wealthy.Most of my nightly language school students were either comfortable business types or college students being well supported by Tatas zloty or sweet Babcias pierogi and pension. |
well sure. we've all had plenty of those students but they don't represent the average pole.
is it me....or did you have plenty of students that did something....not sure what exactly....but they were well off and even when you asked, you still weren't able to go home and explain to someone what that person did? MAN i had sooo many students like that. "wait......now what is it that you do?" |
Oh yeah,definitely.I had plenty of those students.They were usually males in the 27-45 age group, and when asked about their jobs,they usually studied at the akademic technologia or something or other and were teknics of machinist or masters of filogia enzineer or some obscure thing.These guys usually worked with steam,electricity or big industrial piping,constantly left during the lessons to answer a mobile call from their szef, spoke German or Italian well and often had business trips to Odessa,Frankfurt or Roma. They were often named Pawel,Robert or Tomasz.  |
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maniak
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some salaries I know in net and mean, however some are paid under the table. Very few people have umowa o pracy and instead work for the so-called "umowe smieczowe", umowa o dzielo or o zlecenie, or have an umowa o pracy at the minimum wage and the rest is paid as a �bonus� or in cash.
I am not including alternate sources of income (�handel�, part-time jobs, theft�I know a few people who do in fact steal) including financial help from family, from my experience every Pole sends money every month to someone else.
Receptionist, doesn�t matter where, minimum wage: 1100zl
Any entry level job (i.e., meaning a university degree) in Nysa, Walbrzych, Koszalin, Rzeszow, minimum wage: 1100zl, umowa o dzielo
Cook, Swidnica, 1800zl, umowa o pracy, officially minimum wage the rest is under the table
Barber, own business, Legnica, 1500zl, all income declared
Primary school teacher, Bialystok 1600zl
Security guard, pensioner, Swidnica 6zl/hr (has a pension of 1200zl)
Architect, experienced in big firm, Wroclaw, 3000zl, officially minimum wage the rest is a �bonus�
SAP consultant, Wroclaw, 6000zl, umowa o pracy
Regional sales manager for a huge corporation, Wroclaw, spends 60% away from home, 5300zl umowa o pracy plus a variety of perks
Mechanic, the �local garage� kind, no specialties, own business, Nysa, 2200zl
Mechanic, highly skilled, umowa o pracy, 3000zl
Regional director of something, urząd marszałkowski, Wroclaw, 4800 plus lots of bonuses
Urzednik, city architect office, stamping documents and drinking coffee 15 years exp., 3700zl
Urzednik, sociologist at MOPS few years experience, 2200zl
I can go on and on and on... |
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Jack Walker
Joined: 23 Oct 2008
Posts: 412
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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stamping documents and drinking coffee.....
That pretty much sums up the job of most Polish clerks and bureaucrats.Nobody can stamp and swig coffee like they do.Throw in a bit of complaining and rudeness and there you have it! |
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maniak
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Jack Walker wrote: |
stamping documents and drinking coffee.....
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I shit you not but for most Poles that is their idea of a dream job. No big corporate office, being vice-president, being in a highly creative and challenging field or even having your own company. Its 7 hours a day of light office work from 7 to 3pm within a somewhat feudal environment.
Its easy to slack off, no pressure, no chance of getting fired, an easy way in to become "someone", can boss people around, and if you kiss enough ass or know enough people its easy to get some fat director slot doing nothing and quickly start making real bucks through bribes and rigged bidding contracts.
I also have a sneaking suspicison that most Poles complain about the bureaucrat behind the desk simply due to envy. |
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wojbrian
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you in Legnica? I have friends there. |
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Master Shake
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| maniak wrote: |
I shit you not but for most Poles that is their idea of a dream job. No big corporate office, being vice-president, being in a highly creative and challenging field or even having your own company. Its 7 hours a day of light office work from 7 to 3pm within a somewhat feudal environment.
Its easy to slack off, no pressure, no chance of getting fired, an easy way in to become "someone", can boss people around, and if you kiss enough ass or know enough people its easy to get some fat director slot doing nothing and quickly start making real bucks through bribes and rigged bidding contracts.
I also have a sneaking suspicison that most Poles complain about the bureaucrat behind the desk simply due to envy. |
Are you joking? I've never heard any Pole mention one of those government office jobs as something they'd want to do. You think people enjoy mindless repetitive work?
The worst part of these jobs has to be the legions of shuffling, senile, stubborn old people demanding a refund for a stamp or just not knowing what the heck is going on in general.
There's a a good reason Polish office workers are all grumpy. |
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hrvatski
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 270
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'd have to agree with maniak here... I've heard Poles on many occasions talk about how lucky people are who get jobs in government offices - ciepła posadka they'd call it, or a cushy job in other words. Getting an above the board stable job in Poland ain't easy, even if they're grumpy as hell I think people know how shit the job market is out there.
People don't want mindless repetitive work, but for simple people in small towns (and there's plenty of both), they just want something reliable which will pay the bills. |
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maniak
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| wojbrian wrote: |
| Are you in Legnica? I have friends there. |
No, in Wroclaw. Legnica has a nice Rynek and a cool abandoned airport, I used to race there a lot. |
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maniak
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Master Shake wrote: |
Are you joking? |
No, Im not joking. Its anecdotal evidence of course, but considering the number of times Ive heard this coming from a wide variety of backgrounds, not just from small towns or holding dead end jobs... well it surprised even me.
But I do need to refute two of your comments:
-You think people enjoy mindless repetitive work?
Yes. This is quite general, but the vast majority of people have no ambition, whether financial, civic, in hobbies sports or god knows what else. They want stability, comfort and convenience, thats it. Poland, the US, Italy, China, India, it doesnt matter.
- There's a a good reason Polish office workers are all grumpy.
Officer workers or government employees? In my opinion office workers have a right to be disgruntled, theyre treated like cattle and it doesnt matter in which field (another aspect is that they let themselves be treated that way).
Government employees... while the older generation of disinterested and unhelpful fat ass women still rule the nest, Ive found my face-to-face dealings with bureaucracy to be quite pleasant. The paperwork is still there, but its become quick, efficient and helpful at least in Wroclaw and Swidnica. |
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Master Shake
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| maniak wrote: |
-You think people enjoy mindless repetitive work?
Yes. This is quite general, but the vast majority of people have no ambition, whether financial, civic, in hobbies sports or god knows what else. They want stability, comfort and convenience, thats it. Poland, the US, Italy, China, India, it doesnt matter. |
There's a difference between liking the work and being grateful you have a job.
I don't know about the 'vast majority' of people being like this. Sure, a significant proportion are. I guess most of the Poles I meet have an ambitious, self-bettering streak as they are paying a pretty penny for English lessons in hope of travelling, getting a better job, etc..
| maniak wrote: |
- There's a a good reason Polish office workers are all grumpy.
Government employees... while the older generation of disinterested and unhelpful fat ass women still rule the nest, Ive found my face-to-face dealings with bureaucracy to be quite pleasant. The paperwork is still there, but its become quick, efficient and helpful at least in Wroclaw and Swidnica. |
It's not there yet, at least not here in Warsaw. Occasionally I've met the friendlier, younger people you speak of. But quick and efficient? No way.
The Polish immigration office in Warsaw is painfully slow, disorganized and downright incompetent. They send official letters asking for documents which have already been given to them twice. They deny something and then suddenly change their minds for no reason. I'm not speaking only for myself here, either. |
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maniak
Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 194
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Master Shake wrote: |
There's a difference between liking the work and being grateful you have a job. |
Naturally. Except you live in Poland shakes, so start thinking like a.. erm.. start considering how Poles think.
The concept of liking work is completely alien here. Nobody likes to work you work as least as possible and your only motivation for work is money, nothing more, your best bet is to steal, beg, borrow as much of it as possible. The concept of "work" as being something productive, enjoyable, fulfilling some social role or, better yet, civic duty or responsibility to society is laughable in PL. This is not Germany. And if there is someone who thinks that it should be, well... they quickly learn otherwise after 6 months in any Polish "company" (Im using the term loosely as most Polish businesses are feudal slave camps). There is no such thing as "fair and equal" treatment.
And nobody is grateful for having a job (in real terms), having a job is considered an inalienable, natural right and something the government, your mayor, neighbor, family and your dog should all understand and bend over backwards in providing you with some comfy desk job where you do jack *beep*.
| Quote: |
| I don't know about the 'vast majority' of people being like this. Sure, a significant proportion are. I guess most of the Poles I meet have an ambitious, self-bettering streak as they are paying a pretty penny for English lessons in hope of travelling, getting a better job, etc.. |
Look shakes, you're smart enough to realize the fallacy of what you just wrote here.... "as they are paying a pretty penny". Your experience with Poland has been entirely in a context of wealthy Poles. And I mean wealthy wealthy. Anyone in Poland who has the cash to drop on English lessons with a high priced native speaker is RICH and well off or has parents who are. Once you roll around in the dirt a bit you will see how f'ing bad most Poles have it. By most I mean 70%. This is a country that without the ingenuity and creativeness of its population would have died out centuries ago. Clever thieving conniving *beep* some might say, but how most Poles manage to survive in this country is magic.
Btw, for me "vast majority" = "significant proportion" is close enough, it doesnt matter. The majority of people are deadends.
| Quote: |
| I'm not speaking only for myself here, either. |
Like I said and thought I made clear, this is my personal anecdotal observation. From the horror stories I hear in Dzierzoniow and Bialystok makes me honestly believe that 90% of government employees in Poland should technically be in prison. |
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Master Shake
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1202
Location: Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| maniak wrote: |
| shakes wrote: |
| I don't know about the 'vast majority' of people being like this. Sure, a significant proportion are. I guess most of the Poles I meet have an ambitious, self-bettering streak as they are paying a pretty penny for English lessons in hope of travelling, getting a better job, etc.. |
Look shakes, you're smart enough to realize the fallacy of what you just wrote here.... "as they are paying a pretty penny". Your experience with Poland has been entirely in a context of wealthy Poles. And I mean wealthy wealthy. Anyone in Poland who has the cash to drop on English lessons with a high priced native speaker is RICH and well off or has parents who are. Once you roll around in the dirt a bit you will see how f'ing bad most Poles have it. By most I mean 70%. This is a country that without the ingenuity and creativeness of its population would have died out centuries ago. Clever thieving conniving *beep* some might say, but how most Poles manage to survive in this country is magic. |
Truly rich students have 1-1 lessons at their homes or offices and most would never dream of setting foot in a classroom. I have taught these types before.
The students I teach in classes are middle or upper middle-class Poles - they come up with the money because they think English is important. They have enough money to get by, but they're not rolling in it, as you say.
Anyway, I don't think the picture is as bleak as you paint it to be. There is a lot of new money in Poland and the standard has increased dramatically in the last 20 years.
You posit that the vast majority of Poles are lazy, ungrateful, miserable schemers who survive by rooking the government and each other out of every zloty they can.
I think more and more Poles are choosing the high road, getting educated and finding jobs with decent pay and benefits, both in Poland and abroad. |
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delphian-domine
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 674
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone with half a brain can see that the "reality" of earnings and the actual reality are two totally different things in Poland.
There are *plenty* of people out there with no mortgage, who paid peanuts when the social housing was paid off, who are officially "retired", yet they work quite happily on the side. If someone has no mortgage and earns 3000zl a month in total, they're laughing.
When the police were retiring after 15 years - who honestly thinks they were actually retired? |
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