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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| If I misinterpreted, it was only because we might have been using different words (country vs employer), and I can take that as meaning essentially the same thing. I also took issue with your statement because it seemed to be meant to apply everywhere, when it doesn't (unfortunately) here in Japan. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Too much taking of issues here... why can't everyone just sit down and enjoy a nice shot of super cold vodka?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkffu_1WMcc
Kiss and make up. |
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Teacher in Rome
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I would have thought that given the appalling situation for grads in the UK (you often see 83 applicants per grad job quoted, for example) there would be a huge surge in numbers of grads wanting to teach in Italy - esp as Italy is so close to the UK. But the Italy forum here on Dave's is as quiet as ever, and from what I've seen (TEFL dot com) there are as many people interested in teaching in Italy as ever - i.e. no huge increase.
Why is that?
Partly because Italy isn't such a good bet either, economically.
Partly, I suspect, for similar reasons Glenski mentioned. UK grads aren't going abroad because they don't want to miss out on local hiring in the UK.
I think that the majority of grads don't want to teach ESL for crap wages after they've shelled out for a degree and are now deep in debt. They want to take their chances applying for a decent-paying job in the UK rather than spend a year or two out and then have the hassle of reintegrating back in the UK - and finding it even harder to get a decent-paying job. |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Hi TiR! I can understand graduates who have shelled out for a degree wanting a "proper" job at home, but for many there will come a time when they realise that job is just not going to happen. (That realisation came to me to me when I was 33.) In the UK tens of thousands of grads every year since the mid 80s have been failing to find proper jobs.
Many of these folk will refuse (quite understandably) to leave their home country, but a sizeable portion will sooner or later head overseas in search of work. That's why the East Asian TEFL industry is going to soak up many of these grads - some new, some older, some old - in the coming years.
IMO! |
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Teacher in Rome
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Perilla - you first said:
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With escalating unemployment among Western graduates ... there's likely to be a large increase in the number going into TEFL.
Just wondering whether anyone out there has noted a rising trend of TEFL arrivals? |
And I said that it didn't seem to have happened in Italy - yet, that is.
But now you're saying:
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| Many (grads) will refuse to leave their home country, but a sizeable portion will sooner or later head overseas in search of work. That's why the East Asian TEFL industry is going to soak up many of these grads. |
You now seem quite certain that this is happening.
But I'd suggest that the opposite might even occur. The Italian papers are full of stories of super qualified grads leaving Italy in search of work in the UK. I recently read that Spanish grads make up one of the biggest growing groups of expats in the UK. Plenty of anecdotal evidence as well (and I do some hours in the local uni) of high-flying grads determined to leave Italy because of the lack of opportunities here.
The fact is that there are jobs in the UK (though competition is fierce) while jobs in Italy are a complete other ball-game. I just don't see droves of high-achieving grads leaving the UK to go and teach in East Asia. You and I might have done, but there and again, we're probably odd compared to our peers! |
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:02 am Post subject: |
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Hi TiR,
Not sure why there is any confusion. I accept what you say about Italy - I'm not intending to contradict you in any way. All I'm saying, and have been saying/suggesting all along, is that the dearth of graduate jobs in the UK and other English-speaking countries (with the exception of Oz, which is booming) will probably (certainly, IMO) lead to many graduates heading overseas, many of them into TEFL.
BTW, I'm not thinking of "high flying graduates" (your phrase), but more the run-of-the-mill graduates (like me), with degrees in history, philosophy, geography, languages and area studies, etc etc. And I think East Asia, with its booming economies (except Japan, aaccording to Glenski) and huge TEFL industry (pls see tttompatz's figures above) is the most likely destination for many.
Yes, I'm aware that London has been a magnet for many European graduates of all shapes and sizes for a number of years, but that's another (though not unrelated) matter. Portobello, one of my favourite areas of London, is now teeming with Spaniards. I suspect many are graduates; also suspect many of them haven't exactly found a pot of gold, if that's what they were looking for. Also yes, plenty of Italian voices.
My original post wasn't intended to discuss whether or not graduates are on the move (that's a given, IMO), but whether anyone had any anecdotal comment to make on actual arrivals - whether there had been a noticeable increase in the number of young, starry-eyed grads shuffling about the neighbourhood. |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Perilla wrote: |
| My original post wasn't intended to discuss whether or not graduates are on the move (that's a given, IMO), but whether anyone had any anecdotal comment to make on actual arrivals - whether there had been a noticeable increase in the number of young, starry-eyed grads shuffling about the neighbourhood. |
I can be noted that although the numbers in Korea have fallen over the last couple of years (2009-11) they are still high compared to a short decade ago. In 2002 there were about 6000 E2 visas issued (only requirement was a degree). As things started to boom the paperwork increased (degree with apostille, criminal background check with apostille, etc) and the numbers still rose from 6000 in 2002 to just over 30,000 in 2008 and have only fallen off to about 22-25,000.
Thailand is another example where requirements increased (from a white face in 2002 to a degree after 2007) and still the numbers continue to rise (from an estimated 10,000 in 2002 to 15,000 legitimate and an estimated 15,000 more working illegally).
Taiwan has remained pretty stable since the early part of the 2000s as has Japan.
China has seen explosive growth (from only a few thousand back in 2002 to more than (estimated) 80,000 in the country now) and continues to take in teachers faster than the west can put them on airplanes.
Has there been a large influx of new grads into EFL = yes.
Has the industry continued to grow = YES, by leaps and bounds (at least at the entry level).
A lot of people from the west that I have spoken to over the last few years have felt that EFL is soon going to die out but I speculate this is not the case.
Far too often in the far East I have watched Koreans talking to Chinese or Thai people and English is the language that is used; not mandarin or any other of the 1000's of languages in use on the planet.
The largest majority of English communication on the planet are between speakers of other languages and not communicating with native speakers.
Our industry is secure for the near and mid term futures. The popularity of EFL may rise and fall from country to country but overall it will remain a growth industry for the next generation or so.
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| tttompatz wrote: |
Has there been a large influx of new grads into EFL = yes.
Has the industry continued to grow = YES, by leaps and bounds (at least at the entry level).
A lot of people from the west that I have spoken to over the last few years have felt that EFL is soon going to die out but I speculate this is not the case.
Far too often in the far East I have watched Koreans talking to Chinese or Thai people and English is the language that is used; not mandarin or any other of the 1000's of languages in use on the planet.
The largest majority of English communication on the planet are between speakers of other languages and not communicating with native speakers.
Our industry is secure for the near and mid term futures. The popularity of EFL may rise and fall from country to country but overall it will remain a growth industry for the next generation or so. |
Perhaps so, for the next generation. I'm reminded of the 2004, National Geographic News article, "English in Decline as a First Language, Study Says" (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0226_040226_language.html). The implication is that by 2050, a decline in English worldwide equals a decline in the need for EFL/ESL teachers. However, teachers of other growing languages will be in demand. Agree? Disagree? |
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smithrn1983
Joined: 23 Jul 2010
Posts: 320
Location: Moscow
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| I'm reminded of the 2004, National Geographic News article, "English in Decline as a First Language, Study Says" (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0226_040226_language.html). The implication is that by 2050, a decline in English worldwide equals a decline in the need for EFL/ESL teachers. However, teachers of other growing languages will be in demand. Agree? Disagree? |
I disagree. I think that the demand for learning English has little to do with a desire to speak with native speakers. The demand stems from the fact that so much international communication takes place in English. Many of my students never plan to use English with native speakers of the language. They are learning English to communicate with people from other countries who also speak English as a second language.
English is currently the world's third most widely spoken language if you only count native speakers (behind Mandarin and Spanish), but is by far the most widely spoken once you include language learners, with about a half billion more speakers than Mandarin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers |
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Teacher in Rome
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 1286
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Perilla - I didn't mean to come across quite as argumentative!
I think this thread is really valuable - it raises lots of questions as to changes in our own industry, as well as touching on global hiring patterns. I've read all the comments with great interest. But I still have questions:
- all the new hires in China are predominantly from the US or UK?
- why the recent slowdown in Korea, despite a worsening in the job market in the US / UK? (You would expect an increase in numbers, rather than a falling off in the last three or four years)
- are there other growth areas worldwide? I'd say Europe is largely stagnant, but what about Central / South America, the Middle East? Are there influxes there as well?
- what are the predictions over the next few years if the BRIC countries continue to slow growth? What would that mean for people coming into the ELT industry?
- I like the distinctions posters have made between entry-level and more senior ELT posts. Obviously there are far more of the first than the second, so do others think that the numbers for each are going to remain largely steady, continue to increase, or fall off?
(I'm wondering if we should pool our respective knowledge and contribute to a sort of "state of the ELT industry" report for wannabe ELT teachers!) |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Teacher in Rome wrote: |
| ...are there other growth areas worldwide? I'd say Europe is largely stagnant, but what about Central / South America, the Middle East? Are there influxes there as well? |
It's tough to tell if there's an influx of teachers for the Mid East. The Gulf region, in particular, continues to advertise for EFL teachers and is still a TEFL destination for those new to the field because of the top salaries and benefits offered. But as they quickly find out, the required qualifications (education & experience) are also high. In the past, a BA, CELTA/TEFL cert, and several years of experience was fine for some entry-level teaching spots, but that's no longer the case, especially for direct-hire opportunities at universities.
Getting work via one of the numerous dodgy Saudi recruiters and contracting companies is an option. However, those gigs are like a revolving door as naive teachers are lured...uh, hired to constantly replace those who have escaped.
Anyway, newbies discover they can't even get a toe in the door if they don't measure up. They most likely then set their sights on Asia in order to build experience and/or complete an MA online. |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Teacher in Rome wrote: |
1.- all the new hires in China are predominantly from the US or UK?
2.- why the recent slowdown in Korea, despite a worsening in the job market in the US / UK? (You would expect an increase in numbers, rather than a falling off in the last three or four years)
3.- are there other growth areas worldwide? I'd say Europe is largely stagnant, but what about Central / South America, the Middle East? Are there influxes there as well?
4.- what are the predictions over the next few years if the BRIC countries continue to slow growth? What would that mean for people coming into the ELT industry?
5.- I like the distinctions posters have made between entry-level and more senior ELT posts. Obviously there are far more of the first than the second, so do others think that the numbers for each are going to remain largely steady, continue to increase, or fall off? |
ttompatz dusts off his crystal ball....
1)No. 5 countries, UK, US, Can, NZ, AUS are preferred but they will hire anyone with a degree, TEFL and the ability to speak /teach English (white faces preferred.
2) The Korean economy took a hit (too closely tied with the US), their currency fluctuations made it less desirable and the changes to the paperwork put a delay of MONTHS on people wanting to apply while they waited for paperwork from the FBI and Sec.of.State. The government programs are being re-worked so there won't be any big increases in the public sector like there were in 2005-2008 in Korea but there will still be as many jobs as there are applicants.
3) Don't know.
4) The market in Asia (as a region) for EFL teachers continues to grow.
With the integration of ASEAN and the English requirements that go with it for job portability in the region there will continue to be an increase in the region.
China has been beat to death but it is what it is and will continue to absorb teachers.
The remainder of the E/Asia region will remain pretty much stable over the next decade or so.
5) Entry level jobs will continue to increase in number but wages are tied to local economies and currencies (there is only so much that a language center can charge for their classes and governments do have budget restrictions) and and will remain largely stable.
Jobs beyond the glass ceiling will continue to rise for about 1 more generation (till the locals can start doing the job). In the mid range competition will continue to increase as entry level teachers try to move up. Jobs at the very top will remain pretty stable and competition won't be that bad since there aren't that many PhD applicants.
6) On a slightly different vein, the number of jobs for native speakers who also have teaching credentials (home country certifications) and education degrees /PGCEs also continues to rise and the remuneration packages are pretty decent (double or better (up to 5x better) what a NS with a degree will earn teaching EFL).
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Steinmann
Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 255
Location: In the frozen north
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| tttompatz wrote: |
| ...the number of jobs for native speakers who also have teaching credentials (home country certifications) and education degrees /PGCEs also continues to rise and the remuneration packages are pretty decent (double or better (up to 5x better) what a NS with a degree will earn teaching EFL). |
This caught my eye. So a jobseeker with home country certs and experience has a good chance at landing something better than a rock-bottom entry gig? I haven't seen much evidence of this. |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Steinmann wrote: |
| tttompatz wrote: |
| ...the number of jobs for native speakers who also have teaching credentials (home country certifications) and education degrees /PGCEs also continues to rise and the remuneration packages are pretty decent (double or better (up to 5x better) what a NS with a degree will earn teaching EFL). |
This caught my eye. So a jobseeker with home country certs and experience has a good chance at landing something better than a rock-bottom entry gig? I haven't seen much evidence of this. |
Quit hanging out on EFL boards. 
Certified native speaking teacher in government schools in Taiwan have remuneration packages of around 80-90k twd PLUS air, housing, relocation assistance and family benefits.
NET in Hong Kong,
proper international schools all over the place:
( http://www.tes.co.uk/jobs (pick a region on the planet),
http://www.ibo.org/ (look for individual schools NOT applying to IBO),
search associates or
attend a job fair or 3.
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Perilla
Joined: 09 Jul 2010
Posts: 792
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| So a jobseeker with home country certs and experience has a good chance at landing something better than a rock-bottom entry gig? |
This has to be a wind-up. Outside universities, which for reasons that have always escaped me don't require proper teaching quals, the best teaching jobs (ie. the big international schools, government programmes, etc.) always require QTS (qualified teacher status).
More interesting numerical input from tttompatz. I think a fairly simple way of looking at where TEFL jobs will be on the rise in the coming years is to consider whether its a mature market or an emerging one. Most European countries are long mature (except some of the eastern ones) and the same is true (to a greater or lesser extent) of Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Brunei and South Korea. But China, Indonesia and Thailand, to name an obvious three, are expanding bigtime and very keen on boosting English skills. Not so sure if this applies equally to South America's tiger economies - Brazil and Chile. Anyone? |
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