Job Discussion Forums

[Miajiayou]

I would read very carefully about the history of missionary work in China and the unique challenges presented by the culture here which basically make them witness-proof before talking about how you're not going to hide you beliefs. Being forthright about your beliefs could definitely be seen as proselytizing if people don't really like you otherwise.

I'm a Christian as well. I don't talk about it, period. That isn't the way God works here.

[rogerwilco]

[Denim-Maniac]

The problem is that people with strong religious convictions often confuse their role in China, and spend a lot of time bringing religious issues into their classrooms. Those religious issues are often heavily influenced by their own beliefs too...and these are the better of the religious types.

Dont even get me started on the crazies who start telling students that Jesus can help them pass their CET-6 exams and use English corners as a cover for trying to encourage conversion to Christianity.

Most (all) Chinese language students NEED an understanding of appropriateness of register, the difference between 2nd and 3rd conditional, and how to use articles correctly. Lectures and story-telling from the bible has no place in that.

One of my biggest regrets in China is that I didnt report a bunch of missionaries that I worked with, even though I had evidence by way of translated passages of the bible that they handed out in their english corners. In the same situation again, I would 100% go straight to the authorities in the hope they are deported, and would urge anyone else to do the same.

Anyway - you didnt answer my question - is it financial support from a church?

I should add I dont care if anyone is Muslim, Christian, Jew or Hindu, but many of us who have spent time in China (or elsewhere) have experienced missionary types for whom religion is not a matter of personal belief, and who see their mission as 'spreading the word'. Unfortunately these people rarely see excellence in the classroom or in their employment on the same par as excellence in religious recuitment, normally at their exclusion of non-believers etc etc. As a result, these people (who would normally be socially unacceptable within their own cultures) are often viewed as lower than low in China...certainly by other ex-pats, and frequently by Chinese themselves

[rogerwilco]

I try to never share any information about other foreign teachers with the Chinese teachers or administrators.

But, if I knew that a foreign teacher was using class time to discuss religion, then I would report him or her to the administrators without hesitation.

[The Edge]

Hope that there is an impending Mormon Mission.
Bring it on.

[Jeremycraig]

There are several different ideas being presented, and I would respond to the one suggestion made about beliefs, and why such might be spoken about. I think it necessary in this regards to go back to the issue of suppression... In a genuine and open relationship, I cannot see not speaking about something that I am gripped by, particularly if it is not crass, rude, etc. Am I gripped by something or not? Obviously there is a time, place etc. And again, this is based on a situation where I had a formed relationship with another... In such a scenario am I supposed to hide something that is supposed to be central in my life? That would seem quite disingenuous if indeed it was central. How God might move or work is a different subject, and in this regard I am thoroughly convinced of his sovereignty and providence. If one believed the testimony of scripture, faith comes by hearing, and God is shown to use means (people) to accomplish his purposes. Of course, this response seems to be going in a direction that might be considered in violation of some sentiment, so I will let it go at that. Funding- I am not receiving assistance from a church, but why would that matter if people who knew me in a church, and happened to want to help, payed for my supper on occasion?

[Miajiayou]

[Denim-Maniac]

Jeremy - Imagine I went to teach in the state of Texas as a home economics teacher, and spent my time in the classroom and the canteen discussing how the evil of American capitalism harm the marketplace? I dont think the PTA would like it ... damn, they call Obama a commie for daring to introduce a health plan right? Imagine I went to a Texan uni to teach modern languages and introduced the teachings of Mohammed and asked students to sympathetically discuss Islamic issues etc. Again, not likely to be popular with the PTA or other groups.

And with good reasons. My political beliefs have little place in a home economics class, and religious beliefs have little place in a modern languages university class. What you do or dont believe has no place in a Chinese students English language class.

The lecturing / preaching approach wouldnt be accepted in any western establishment, even more so when the subject being taught is very seperate to the topic being lectured or introduced.

And the reason people would be concerned if you did have support from a church is because of all those who came before you. We have all seen, and worked with them, and had to work hard to redress the balance with our own confused students because of these types of teachers. You mention 'in a genuine and open relationship', and to this I would say, yes, if you were dating someone, discuss your faith...but a teacher / student relationship is not a 'genuine / open' one. Opinion / faith / desires / politics etc rarely if ever have a place in a language classroom.

Its nothing to do with suppression, but rather what is appropriate. Dont ask for acceptance because Im pretty sure people in your hometown wouldnt accept Chinese teachers coming to the US and trying to convert primary school kids to communism, or Iranian lecturers swaying opinion in state schools towards their causes.

[Jeremycraig]

"And the reason people would be concerned if you did have support from a church is because of all those who came before you. We have all seen, and worked with them, and had to work hard to redress the balance with our own confused students because of these types of teachers. You mention 'in a genuine and open relationship', and to this I would say, yes, if you were dating someone, discuss your faith...but a teacher / student relationship is not a 'genuine / open' one. Opinion / faith / desires / politics etc rarely if ever have a place in a language classroom. "



I do not have a problem with the logic train on this, and understand that in the classroom the teacher is to be about the subject of study. The whole conversation went to this arena not on my prompting but because of the suspicion of others. I have only stayed in it out of a sense of cordiality.

[Denim-Maniac]

... and that suspicion was mine sir, apologies if it felt unfair, but I hope you do, to some degree at least, understand the feelings that faith and its discussion within a classroom or teachers office may cause. I know you mentioned doing a CELTA or similar before ... if you do that, they will also 'teach' you that your opinions, politics, codes of morality, etc etc rarely have a place in your classroom.

Id still question your decision to come to China with a young child and a wife to support though....this is also perhaps a reason for my suspicion before, because it does seem a strange choice. The salary is normally quite poor, so supporting your family isnt likely to be easy. Travelling with the family means the scope for certain types of adventure is limited ... and with zero TEFL experience it does seem an odd life choice.

I know you also mentioned apartment costs etc. For an apartment with several bedrooms that is comparable to something in Texas ... Id imagine you would be looking at spending 75% of your uni salary in rent. Perhaps all of your salary! If you want to live in more basic accom then the uni supplied place is often free. I dont know how suitable it may be for a family mind...others can chip in with opinions there. Ive always been happy to live in basic, employer supplied housing ... but to ask my family to also live in it ....hmmm, not sure about that one.

Im not really sure that a uni is anymore of a safe choice than a training centre either. If you read through the 'my employer cheated me' type threads, they are just as likely to be problems with uni / college employers IMO. I dont think training centres attract any more 'cheated out of money' complaints than uni's do. (they normally get slated for hours worked instead)

[Jeremycraig]

interesting about the salary- I have been under the impression that it was, with living expenses considered, quite good. In fact, I thought that I would be able to save money doing this. Maybe though I have been mistaken.

As to housing, my hope was that there would be a decent size apartment made available through a University which would be large enough for my small cohort, as in 1200+ sq ft.

[Denim-Maniac]

I can never relate size in X sq ft in real terms. I think its often not just size, but level of comfort. Employer supplied housing may be big enough, but the lack of comfort may require serious adjustment, or serious investment to get it right. Again, it could just be my experience. I do believe the type of apartment normally favoured by those raising families are probably the kind that are rented privately.

Salary Vs. Hours Vs. cost of living does often mean that a 5000 RMB uni salary goes a long way. But normally that refers to a single person, not someone supporting a family.

Medical issues should be a concern too. There is no freebie health care so anything that requires treatment will cost, again a concern with a child.

On your own ... dude I would say just go for it, and dont worry. But with a family.....it really is a whole different ball game

[Non Sequitur]

[Jeremycraig]

Yes, I do appreciate much of the concern about professionalism, tact, etc. Theologically I am quite different than what is often the case within modern evangelicalism. As a result of the theology,I do not feel compelled to use pressure, schemes, tricks etc in order to present what I believe to be true, or get some one to 'buy into' something. As a result those activities deemed as inappropriate and obnoxious are a non issue. Again, I recognize the classroom is to be used for teaching, and using it for other means would seem to be cheating my employer. All this to say, I do not fit the bill for what the concern seems to center around.

Apartment- 1200 square feet is about 111 square meters.. Does that help? I would hope to be in an apartment with standard utilities available, as in fridge, wash, air conditioning, etc. I would think that the on campus option would provide some convenience and security which would be great regarding peace of mind as we acclimate. I understand there would be a start up cost when resettling anywhere. Incidentally, how much should one prepare for?

[spiral78]

Jeremycraig, you mentioned earlier that people back home would help to support you and family for a while. Just to clarify; would these be churchfolk supporting you because you have a mission?






If yes, I'd have to suggest that it could be less than honest to take their money until you find out first-hand how effectively you can actually fulfill any such mission.


The other bit that would concern me is - with whom do you expect to establish the type of relationships in which you'd share your faith?

Living in a foreign country, one's circle of acquaintances is necessarily small for the first year or more.

Students are typically out-of-bounds in terms of personal relationship material - so long as a teacher has any power over a student whatsoever in terms of grades, it's simply unethical.

That leaves fellow teachers. Your fellow teachers with whom you can communicate enough to have a relationship outside of school are most likely limited to other native speakers, all of whom will have had ample opportunities to hear whatever 'word' they want for years before your arrival - basically, those to whom a Christian message is nothing new.

If you are hoping to establish relationships with people around you such as shopkeepers, etc., don't hold your breath - such people have busy lives and have already seen plenty of foreigners come and go - they're not usually too interested in establishing personal relationships.

To be realistic here, I have never been to China - but I've worked with Christian teachers in other countries. So far, all those I know have had very, very small success at establishing personal relationships and spreading their faith - basically zero, really, except for those very few who make it a long-term project (I mean 5-10 years in a location). I knew a few who tried the 'inviting people over for a meal and a chat' tactic; that backfired immediately as they gained a wide reputation for wanting something in return for their hospitality.


By all means, go for other reasons; you may be an excellent English language teacher. But if spreading your faith is a central reason for going, I'd seriously suggest thinking again. Your opportunities are likely to be very limited; you'd likely have more at home in Texas.