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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Dear all |
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| usool wrote: |
As an individual I believe that the Muslim malaise is an internal affair and we need to solve it internally.
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Tell that to the poor guy being tied to a car and driven around the neighbourhood.
It doesn't seem to me that the Saudis are up in arms about what is going on there and THEY have so much to lose. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Mark100,
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| If you familiar with the concept of original sin you will understand that we all stand weak and morally bankrupt in the eyes of the creator. |
Islam, however, rejects the concept of original sin, saying that Adam and Eve were forgiven by Allah after eating from the tree and passed on no taint of sin to their descendants.
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As an individual I believe that the Muslim malaise is an internal affair and we need to solve it internally.
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Sounds good to me - when/how will you get started?
Regards,
John |
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usool
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:07 pm Post subject: Dear John |
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Dear John
Sounds good to me - when/how will you get started?
The noble scholars of this ummah are working on the issue. The priority is to get people to reject concepts that were ingrained during colonial/imperial times and instead to put our trust in them.
In ALLAH we trust. The world needs the light of Islaam to remove the darkness that Western Secular imperialism has put us in.
Regards and best wishes |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Are you seriously saying that everything wrong in Muslim societies is a result of imperialism and colonialism? I'm not an expert on Islamic history, but I know enough to know that just like every other group on earth it isn't and has never been perfect. Have you heard or tribalism? This is one of the basic causes of wars within Africa and the Middle East and it predates colonialism by far.
Just what exactly do you presume to be the residue from colonial days which is tainting the culture? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Dear usool,
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| The noble scholars of this ummah are working on the issue. |
Is this being done in concert, at any particular place? Is there any way one could see - via the Net, for example - how matters are progressing?
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The priority is to get people to reject concepts that were ingrained during colonial/imperial times and instead to put our trust in them.
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I'd say that might be a bit too simplistic an explanation for the malaise that the Islamic world is experiencing. In fact, it sounds a lot like a trend that is, unfortunately, increasingly prevalent in "the West" now - that is, the abdication of personal responsibility for one's problems, putting all the blame for one's situation on "outside forces". Certainly this interpretation of Islam's malaise is one that the extremist elements would enthusiastically espouse. I hope, therefore, that the scholars will not exclude the possibility that at least some of Islam's problems could be
"home-grown".
Regards,
John |
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usool
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:37 pm Post subject: Dear John |
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Dear John
Sorry you misunderstood:
some of Islam's problems
Islaam doesnt have any problems, the Muslims though have plenty and they're all internal. Part of the Muslim belief is that if we leave acting on scripture we get punished. At the moment thats at the hands of the US et al but if wasnt them it would be someone else.
Regards and best wishes |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Dear usool,
OK, some of the Muslim world's problems, then. Considering the differing interpretations of scripture in the Muslim world - not only the differences among Sunni, Shi'te and Sufi, but also the variations and schools of thought within these branches, I'd say the scholars have their work cut out for them, trying to come up with something that will satisfy all Muslims.
It's difficult, for example, to envision a solution to the malaise that both the Sufis and the extremists would find equally satisfactory.
Regards,
John
P.S. Is this being done in concert, at any particular place? Is there any way one could see - via the Net, for example - how matters are progressing? |
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usool
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:00 pm Post subject: Dear John |
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Dear John
As for the issue of Islamic revival, which is the essense of what we are talking about then it is a job the Islamic scholars, whoever they may, take very seriously and are indeed working on it.
As for whether it can be perceived then I suppose the answer to that is that its perception requires for you to be in the house to understand its signs.
Regards and best wishes |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Dear usool,
Not being "in the house", I would seem to be excluded from perceiving the signs. I have, however, a good number of Muslim friends; can they pass along the signs to me?
Regards,
John |
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usool
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:11 pm Post subject: Dear John |
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Dear John
If one believes in Islaam then one believes in certain principles derived from the sources. As an example of this we as Muslims believe that we do well in this world, not financially but holistically, when we follow ALLAH's law and vice-versa. The nature of the revival, how it will occur and the signs can only be understood with reference to the Islamic belief system. If one doesnt believe in these things then the signs will make no sense. As for the non-Muslim world, they shall witness the fruits of the revival when Islaam once again dominates the international scene and does away with neo-colonialism and neo-imperialism and banishes the exectuives of big arms firms to the place they belong- the welfare office!
Regards and best wishes |
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Bindair Dundat
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Dear all |
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| usool wrote: |
| The type of killing that is taking place in Saudi (also in Madrid etc) is Haram for the reason that civilians are being attacked. The non-Muslims in Saudi have been invited in by the legitimate authrities and hence their lives are sacred. To kill them is a breach of trust on behalf of the Muslims. We take such things very seriously. |
So what exactly are Muslims in general doing about it? It appears to much of the non-Muslim world as though Muslims in general are aiding and abetting. The law-enforcement fiasco in Al-Khobar is a case in point; the millions of dollars that have been funnelled to Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hizbollah, and other terrorist organizations is another; the insistence on dwelling on the negative side in regard to the invasion of Iraq and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is yet another. The list could go on and on.
I will also say, my friend, that you yourself seem to have the habit of refusing to admit when you are shown to be wrong. In looking back over this thread, I see many instances where your arguments have been neutralized. Your characteristic response seems to be to ignore the evidence and simply try again from another angle.
I think what you said about taking terrorism seriously is crap. I think you're paying lip service to humanitarian values while cheering on the killers and the killing.
BD |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Dear usool,
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when Islaam once again dominates the international scene and does away with neo-colonialism and neo-imperialism and banishes the exectuives of big arms firms to the place they belong- the welfare office!
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A noble ambition, and one I applaud. However, given the unfortunate situation that dominating the international scene depends, I'd say, in large measure upon the size/strength of a nation's armaments, how will Islaam
manage to accomplish that domination?
Regards,
John |
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usool
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:49 pm Post subject: Dear BD |
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Dear BD
I will also say, my friend, that you yourself seem to have the habit of refusing to admit when you are shown to be wrong]
Please furnish me with an example or three.
I think what you said about taking terrorism seriously is crap.
I am amazed, really amazed that you could say this simple because this thread was so much about the word terrorism as used today was a relative word which in essence is meaningless. Are we to accept the definition of terrorism which carries racist and facist undertones? I think members of this forum, non-Muslim members, should stop asking what Muslims are doing about our misdemeanors. Instead Jews should ask themselves whar they are doing to stop the facism and racism of the Israeli state and Secular Judeo-Christians should ask themselves what they are doing to stop the non-stop killing machines that are European Armies. Aside from the obvious crusades of the Americans and the British in Iraq/Afghanistan etc has everybody forgotten that the French jumped into the Rewanda crisis on the side of those commiting the crime?
As for the tone of the your statement, lets please keep this civil.
To John
how will Islaam manage to accomplish that domination?
Lets get this clear. We do not fear death. Islaam is a chivalrous religion. We dont believe in dropping atom bombs, napalm, agent orange, daisy cutter bombs, cluster bombs etc that do not distinguish between the civilian and military. We don't believe in an arms industry that makes ever better ways of killing people. No. If we fight we do it on the ground and we die in numbers. Of this we hold no fear.
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" (Translated meaning of the Noble Quran, Al-Nisa, Vers 75)
Regards and best wishes
Regards and best wishes |
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TEF_LON
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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This is a reply to some of the questions raised by Guest of Japan on Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:48 am. Thanks for waiting Guest. I have managed to finish marking off most of the exams. Its going through them with the students that's taking most of my 'valuable online time'! I hope the answers are as legible as the questions, and I appreciate it, really.
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| Are you saying that Islamic law is the truth and therefore needs no external comparison? |
People have a natural urge to worship and Islam agrees with this unlike the Communist ideals which tried to kill off a natural human instinct by denying any existence of the creator and his worship.
I do not have to tell you that Islam is the correct belief because I am a Muslim and you do not have to take my word for it to be sufficient proof for its correctness, rather I encourage you to question Islam and it will provide the answers to whatever questions you have, after all who knows better, the Creator or the Created! Islam states what its principles are and it is up to you to find out. This is why it differs from other beliefs in that it is proven rationally from its basis rather than from an emotional urge to worship something.
To refer Islam to another set of beliefs or its rules with another set of rules is wrong. To understand whether Islam is the correct belief first check it agrees with reality. Reality being it is natural and rationally provable. Since a person who is not a Muslim is questioning Islam's validity it is the basis of Islam that everything rests on including the rules. The basis is simply everything is created and there is a creator and this is proven and provable mso people do not accept it blindly. I would never engage in a discussion with you about the rules of Islam unless you accept that Islam is correct. This is why I think there is a divide between the Muslim world and the West. Most Muslims do not see the rules concerning of say economics working in there favour or it is based on Islamic teachings. The same with the West it does not want to accept that Islam does have a systematic and organised and workable rules regarding say economics. After all Muslims believe that there is a creator, did he forget to create the rules regrding say economics for example!
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| Are you saying that modern Muslims and Orthodox Islam have separated beyond recognition? Were they ever in alignment? |
Yes and Yes. When you compare the reason for accepting any belief being rationally based and agreeing with human nature Muslims today have embraced Islam much the same way Christians, and Jews have embraced their respective beliefs. Most Muslims today are Muslims because their families are Muslims or simply they were born into it. Even Islamic teaching does not accept this as the basis for embracing Islam. So just from this basis and this basis alone the answer to your question is yes Muslims and Islam are not aligned. This does not mean they are not Muslims but it means they are bad Muslims. This is why when you compare the contribution made to the world by Muslims in the past and Muslims today the difference is huge. On the one hand Muslims understood reality better than they do today and on the other they also achieved much. Your question about alignment is therefore answered. Muslims were aligned and then they forgot why they were Muslims and this is the basis to judge. When the American soldiers in Iraq tortured their prisoners did Americans denounce the torturers or did they denounce American Ideals? Therefore alignment between Muslims actions today and what Islam asks of them can only be judged by Muslims and for the non Muslim it is the reason why Muslims are Muslims that can be judged. This is why whole cities and countries asked Islamic law be applied upon them even though they were not Muslims. Kind of like what is happening today in Afghanistan and North Korea attracted to American ideals even though they are not Americans.
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| Who exactly is �us� and �them�? |
I think this is obvious but I will point out the obvious. It is people who believe, built on rational grounds, that everything in the world is needy and therefore in need of the creator, against those who say otherwise.
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| Are you saying comparisons are temporal and therefore prone to fallacy? |
Only as far as people rationally determining whether an action is good or bad is concerned. Anyone attempting to legalize an action or illegalize and action does so based on what? When you push and push the source of that legalization is their thought. People do not know whether an action is good or bad because all people see is the action and no matter how many times you observe an action all you do is observe action, there is nothing in it to determine it is good or bad. Please do not mention consequences because that too is action. Think of the period of Prohibition on America, why is alcohol legal today but not at that time, there is the action and the object. On the same issue at on period of time alcohol is legal and at another illegal.
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| Do you really believe that logic is innate and not learned? |
Yes. I understand what you mean and I will not get into a technical discussion about words such as logic, rational, etc. After reading this think for a second there are some things you might not agree with, or you might even disagree with me entirely. Now you think people learn everything from experience which means people learn everything they need to after they are born. Are you a Muslim? Did you convert to Islam? Were you a Muslim? Were you or Are you interested in converting to Islam? So you say yes or no based on being a Muslim first or suddenly that is not necessary. Which means what? You know that there are some things you just know. To deny this means you are affirming my argument because you must know that contradiction and non contradiction cannot exist in one and the same reality. If it did there would be no need to learn anything or teach it for that matter. So the question is did you learn contradiction at some point in your life? Clearly no it came with you when you arrived into the world. When you learned that a square circle existed or not did you experience it first or did you just know it cannot exist? This being the first source of truth is innate. People have built in rational chips if you like which are there before you do anything. This is basic and part of human nature and it is simple and part of Islamic teaching.
| Quote: |
| What exactly was the meaning of your kebab reference to Usool? |
It means regally beamed 
Best regards.[/quote] |
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Hector_Lector
Joined: 20 Apr 2004
Posts: 548
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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usool and TEF_LON, side by side.
Am I missing something again?
Are (hee hee, hee hee), like, (hee hee, hee hee - SMACK! Shut the hell up, buttmunch) Beavis and Butthead back?
If so, then they are even funnier this time. |
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