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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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 Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
I wouldn't agree, actually.
As I said before, teaching is both science and art. Most teachers tend to have things they do well (and are interested in) and other things they do less well. I wouldn't classify most teachers as average - most teachers are individuals, with their own strengths and weaknesses in the field. |
It doesn't matter if you agree or you don't. It is a personal finding that has as much gravitas as your personal findings with the teachers you work alongside with at some random university in the Netherlands.
I would say most teachers are average, just like most soldiers, doctors, lawyers, binmen - that is why we have 'the law of averages'.
I have found that are a few outstanding teachers, a few awful ones and most are middling. There are many who think they are a lot better than they are, but..
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| I am currently interviewing teachers with related post grad degrees and specific experience teaching in a particular type of setting. We have both ns and nns candidates. By no means will we choose a candidate on the basis of his or her L1. All these candidates have C2 English. We will choose the ones who demonstrate the skill set we need (as I've said before). Regardless of L1. |
Let me know which one you choose?
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| I, myself, hold related post-grad degrees and have over 15 years of experience in a range of academic and business settings. |
Yeah, we all know! 
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| However, no way could I do a good job in, for example, a context where most students are Asian (too far distant from my preferred approaches and methods) or young learners or even teenagers - I haven't got the skill sets. I also don't work well with low-level learners. |
I understand that - but what has that got to do with the debate of NS and NNS teachers?
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| There are MANY nns speakers who could do a better job than I in any of the above. |
We are going off tangent again.
So, the NNS teacher might be better because you don't want to teach those groups and you would be useless because your motivation would be minimal. I get it.
But we get two teachers (one NS and one NNS) who are equal in all aspects - including their specialities and motivation. It is a no brainer who gets picked. Unless you have been smoking a bit too much of the Kachru tobacco!
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And I'm not one of a kind  |
Don't worry, I am under no illusion. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| I am not implying anything of the sort. Non-native status has nothing to do with it, as you say, if a teacher is having problems, whatever the learners may believe. Just cannot understand why an issue is being made in the first place. |
I am not a non-native speaker of English so I don't have any first hand views on it but just from what they have been telling me, here are a few of their gripes.
The reason the NNS students come to the UK and pay up to 15000 pounds in international tuition fees is because they want native speakers teaching them or else they would have gone to Singapore, Malaysia, South Korea or a glut of places where they can also be taught by NNS at half the cost.
Wherever we like it or not, if a teacher who is a NNS makes a mistake - their NNS status gets brought up. When we all started out, didn't it happen to us when we weren't conversant in grammar rules?
Yes - and we are native speakers. Is it fair on the NNS teacher if they are actually in the right? No. Is it a part of teaching English? It is for all of us. To say that it isn't widespread is naive at best. It is just an extra burden for the NNS teacher to bear, it is exactly the same for me when I teach Spanish. |
Fair enough. Which is why the whole non-native teacher issue is a red herring, despite the learners' gripes. Were they promised British teachers, in your uni? I'd say not. Probably they were told they would have a qualified person capable of the job, no? So, for the learners to use a teacher's nationality and language background in order to vent is unfair and discriminatory. In much the same way as it is unfair for students to complain that they don't want one or other of the anglophone nations, as its speakers do not speak 'pure' English. All stuff and nonsense |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| robbie_davies wrote: |
| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| I am not implying anything of the sort. Non-native status has nothing to do with it, as you say, if a teacher is having problems, whatever the learners may believe. Just cannot understand why an issue is being made in the first place. |
I am not a non-native speaker of English so I don't have any first hand views on it but just from what they have been telling me, here are a few of their gripes.
The reason the NNS students come to the UK and pay up to 15000 pounds in international tuition fees is because they want native speakers teaching them or else they would have gone to Singapore, Malaysia, South Korea or a glut of places where they can also be taught by NNS at half the cost.
Wherever we like it or not, if a teacher who is a NNS makes a mistake - their NNS status gets brought up. When we all started out, didn't it happen to us when we weren't conversant in grammar rules?
Yes - and we are native speakers. Is it fair on the NNS teacher if they are actually in the right? No. Is it a part of teaching English? It is for all of us. To say that it isn't widespread is naive at best. It is just an extra burden for the NNS teacher to bear, it is exactly the same for me when I teach Spanish. |
Fair enough. Which is why the whole non-native teacher issue is a red herring, despite the learners' gripes. Were they promised British teachers, in your uni? I'd say not. Probably they were told they would have a qualified person capable of the job, no? So, for the learners to use a teacher's nationality and language background in order to vent is unfair and discriminatory. In much the same way as it is unfair for students to complain that they don't want one or other of the anglophone nations, as its speakers do not speak 'pure' English. All stuff and nonsense |
No good shooting the messenger man, and it is no good moaning about students complaining - you teach in Russia - it happens all the time over there, fairness has naught to do with it. As a black man - I have had students doubting my English proficiency, thinking I am only native in making jungle calls! You have to be twice as good, that is the point, and if you are not then you are going to get punished - and I am a native speaker.
In regards native speakers, It is what the students want. Most cases, they will want a native speaker to teach them, whatever the language is, a NNS will get a pass if they are doing a good job but if they are not then it will get brought up, the reason I brought up my personal case is to make a point about not every NNS teacher being fantastic - some of them awful despite their flawless English and are prone to making mistakes - now I am sure you know brilliant NNS teachers there in Russia and of course Spiral works with NNS ESL gods over there in the Netherlands. I accept what you say that they exist thus balance is needed - the opposite of what you and Spiral say is true also. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, but it almost sounds like you agree with the students on this. I do not. I remember a group of Russian students complaining that their Italian teacher wasn't 'Italian enough'. She was from the Tyrol, and was quite blonde. Whatever the issues with her teaching, students complaining about her and suggesting she wasn't really Italian just made them all look very silly, and the complaints were rejected as groundless. As I'd hope would be the same in your nameless university. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Yes, but it almost sounds like you agree with the students on this. I do not. I remember a group of Russian students complaining that their Italian teacher wasn't 'Italian enough'. She was from the Tyrol, and was quite blonde. Whatever the issues with her teaching, students complaining about her and suggesting she wasn't really Italian just made them all look very silly, and the complaints were rejected as groundless. As I'd hope would be the same in your nameless university. |
In this particular case I do because the lecturers in question are goddamn awful but if they were actually decent then I wouldn't. I am not that much of a git! I am a NNS teacher of Spanish myself, I know the challenges. You have to be twice as good. You know that if you are a teacher of a language that is not native to you. Every NNS teacher of English knows the score.
I am not making this clear enough but I will try now, the lecturers in question are awful, if they were good - no-one would be complaining but the fact they are awful is what all the moaning is based on. When a lecturer is doing an awful job - their NNS status is highlighted - is it fair or is it of absolutely no surprise at all? |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Yet, the link between their non-native status and their reported awfulness remains. I still say that this is a red herring. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| Yet, the link between their non-native status and their reported awfulness remains. I still say that this is a red herring. |
No more than the link between the reported brilliance of lots of non native speaker teachers of English that people are reporting on this thread. There are both good and bad in all types. Including English teachers.
And when someone can't do their job, then people naturally look for reasons, and in the case of English teachers who learned the language as an L2 - their NNS status will be highlighted, I am sorry people are going to do that. You need to have a word with mankind about being so judgmental as a whole!
Easy to spout the brilliance of a MA TESOL holder from Syria if you compare them to some stumblebum from Kilmarnock with a 1 month CELTA and a city and guilds in fish frying and then praise the superiority of NNS teachers over native speakers, that is wrong also.
All I am asking for is to compare like to like - making a comparison where EVERYTHING is equal. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:50 am Post subject: |
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I still do not see your angle exactly. There are some very talented non-native teachers out there. Some are not so great either. Just like native speakers. I do not see anybody making any claims that ALL non-native teacher are brilliant. The only person who seems to have made reference to this is you, in your criticisms of the proposition.
There is still a basic flaw in your students' beef with their non-native teachers. Highlighting non-native status when there is some sort of classroom problem is not going to resolve any issues where non-native status is not the issue in the first place. They might as well try to assert that the teachers' gender was the problem while they are at it. There would be about as much logical connection. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
| I still do not see your angle exactly. There are some very talented non-native teachers out there. Some are not so great either. Just like native speakers. I do not see anybody making any claims that ALL non-native teacher are brilliant. The only person who seems to have made reference to this is you, in your criticisms of the proposition. |
I have not used 'All' in reference to anything if you go back and read everything I have written, I know there are good NNS English teachers however, the hyperbole on this thread stating that NNS English teachers are superior to NS teachers by one or two of the posters needs to be highlighted with common sense.
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| There is still a basic flaw in your students' beef with their non-native teachers. Highlighting non-native status when there is some sort of classroom problem is not going to resolve any issues where non-native status is not the issue in the first place. They might as well try to assert that the teachers' gender was the problem while they are at it. There would be about as much logical connection. |
It is not a basic flaw if the problem is language related (amongst other things it has to be said) so the logic in trying to compare it to gender or race is in itself flawed. The NNS teachers in this particular case are both male and female.  |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:28 am Post subject: |
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There's no reason whatsoever why someone who happens to have a Spanish (or other) passport, and who maybe bilingual, shouldn't be every bit as good an English teacher as a "native".
Some of the very best English teachers I've known have been "non-natives". They've been far better teachers than many "natives", with a knowledge of English language far in excess of many "native" speakers.
Is this the statement you wish to give balance to? I see nothing excessive and no hyperbole at all. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 13 Jun 2013
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
There's no reason whatsoever why someone who happens to have a Spanish (or other) passport, and who maybe bilingual, shouldn't be every bit as good an English teacher as a "native".
Some of the very best English teachers I've known have been "non-natives". They've been far better teachers than many "natives", with a knowledge of English language far in excess of many "native" speakers.
Is this the statement you wish to give balance to? I see nothing excessive and no hyperbole at all. |
As well as many other posts you see on this forum regarding this subject, yes.
If you don't believe it to be hyperbole, fine. I must disagree though. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I dunno. Words such as 'shouldn't', 'some', and 'many' soften the sentiment and give it a fairly reasonable and balanced stamp. But fair enough if others see it differently. |
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SirKirby
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 261
Location: Barcelona, Spain
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
There's no reason whatsoever why someone who happens to have a Spanish (or other) passport, and who maybe bilingual, shouldn't be every bit as good an English teacher as a "native".
Some of the very best English teachers I've known have been "non-natives". They've been far better teachers than many "natives", with a knowledge of English language far in excess of many "native" speakers.
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I stand by that statement, which I wrote on this forum back in 2007.
I've worked in ELT for nearly 35 years, in schools and universities which have employed ONLY native speakers and in others which have not cared what passport you possess, so long as (1) your English is native or near-native and (2) you are, or have the potential to be, an excellent teacher.
Believe me, the standard in the latter type of school was no worse (and, as the DoS or ADoS, many of the teachers I have actually observed giving class).
In one very large school a survey of student satisfaction appeared to show a statistically significant greater degree of satisfaction with the non-native speakers than with the "natives". |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:45 am Post subject: |
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SirKirby, your statement and experience is in full accord with my experience too. I stand by your words also.
Others will almost certainly disagree though, as is their right, no matter the reason. |
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billbob
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| RabbitWho wrote: |
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"I would've though Spain would be a top destination for native speakers and there would therefore be no need to employ teachers from Central Europe."
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You are explicitly stating here that you consider teachers from Central Europe to be of inferior quality, I think that is very rude and shows a complete lack of understanding of what the job involves. |
RabbitWho, I am not explicitly stating MY opinions here. I'm just trying to undersatnad the situation, that's all. I get the feeling that most students prefer to be taught by native speakers or by teachers who know the students' language, so in Spain, that woul be native speakers of English or Spanish. I would've thought there are plenty of English philology grads in Spain, and given how many native speakers have told me they'd prefer a job in The Med over one in Eastern Europe, where I've worked, I'm surprised there are not two native speakers for each vacancy in Spain. Therefore I'm surprised that there is room on the market for people who are neither native speakers of English or people fluent in English and Spanish.
It's not that I think that teachers from Central Europe are no good. Far from it, I've worked with heaps of them and my overall view is positive. Shame I've never met a Spanish teacher fo English to compare them to;) |
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