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ana
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 16
Location: Sunny Bolton
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 Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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Yeh, 120 is for one small room in a flat with 5 other people. The whole apartment costs alot more. Like I said, 250 for your own place is very cheap.
The people I've met from Catalonia and the people I know who live there all say the same: Catalonians are not Spanish. It's like saying the Welsh or Scottish are English, they're not.
A note on the above statement: the meaning of life is vanilla/chocolate ice-cream. Surely the flavour doesn't matter. The meaning of life is ice-cream!
love Anna  |
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Mouse
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The meaning of life is ice-cream! |
You are damned right! That and cheese. Not necessarily together.
| Quote: |
| The people I've met from Catalonia and the people I know who live there all say the same: Catalonians are not Spanish. It's like saying the Welsh or Scottish are English, they're not. |
Well, I have to say that I've had this conversation with a lot of people here, and I'm not sure that the Wales or Scotland argument holds. I'm Welsh (in case anybody on the ESLCafe hasn't heard) and I agree that I'm not English (I don't have a problem with the English, but I'm not from there). On the other hand, I am British. In this example...
Wales is a part of Britain (as is England).
Catalonia is a part of Spain (as is Galicia).
So, from my point of view, the Catalans are different from the Galicians (and the Basques and the Andalucians...), but all of whom are Spanish. Not everyone agrees with me, of course. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 3:16 am Post subject: are the Catalans Spanish? |
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Absolutely right, the Catalan people are definitely Spanish. yes they speak a different language, but the last time I checked, Catalonia is located in Spain. And the Catalan people have access to everything that Spaniards from others regions have access to.
So they want to take advantage of everything that Spain has to offer, want to get funded by the government, and yet they want to be independent. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
They just have a built-in bitterness and hostility directed towards "Spanish" people 
However, it goes both ways. My flatmate in Madrid (who is from Granada, in the south) told me he had never been to Barcelona or Catalonia, and would never go there.
It's a complicated situation in Spain, as you have 4 national languages, and different cultures and people. But for the most part, everyone gets along quite well. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 5:50 am Post subject: Re: are the Catalans Spanish? |
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| SEndrigo wrote: |
It's a complicated situation in Spain, as you have 4 national languages, and different cultures and people. But for the most part, everyone gets along quite well. |
"Everyone gets along quite well"!!!!!!!!!!
SEndrigo, what about the low level civil war that has been going on in Pais Vasco and Navarra for the last 35 or so years!
Or the fact that the overwhelming majority of Basques, Navarrans and Catalans want to loosen the ties that bind them to the Castillian Government in Madrid.
It is not that they "want to take advantage of everything that Spain has to offer, want to get funded by the government, and yet they want to be independent." They want to be released but the Madrid Government refuses to let them go.
Fortunately for the rest of us for the vast majority of the time the overwhelming majority of the people in Pais Vasco, Navarra and Catalonia prosecute their struggle in a non-violent manner.
The last time that I went to Barcelona the hotel bars, restaurants and kitchens were full of with working class boys and girls from Andalucia (or "the south" as you referred to it) who were very happy to be able to earn a living in the prosperous North!
Madrid has a huge economic interest in continuing to thwart the attempts that the people in these areas are making to move towards national liberation!
Or aren't you in favour of economic freedom!
Viva Barcelona! Viva Bilbao! Viva Pamplona! Viva!
Sorry I don't know it in Catalan or Euskera - I only speak Andalu!
Last edited by stillnosheep on Mon May 31, 2004 12:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: are the Catalans Spanish? |
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| stillnosheep wrote: |
"Everyone gets along quite well"!!!!!!!!!! |
How about reading what I have written more carefully....I said, "for the most part."
Yes, there are people whose beliefs (mostly nonsensical and lacking in reason) cause them to adopt aggressive policies toward other Spaniards and/or the government. But these people are in the minority.
| stillnosheep wrote: |
| Sendrigo, what about the low level civil war that has been going on in Pays Basco and Navarra for the last 35 or so years! |
Low level civil war? You make it sound a lot worse than it is
If you mean the handful of terrorists, excuse me, freedom fighters of PAIS VASCO, the world-famous and much-loved ETA....
Yes they are quite popular in Spain aren't they (actually only in their small, provincial region, and even there they face opposition from all peace-loving people).
They even have the decency to blow people up. In fact, the only thing that separates them from Al Qaeda is that they do not blow themselves up in the process.
Oh, that and they tend to kill individuals most of the time.....let's hope they don't move on to killing entire groups of people...
| stillnosheep wrote: |
Or the fact that the overwhelming majority of Basques, Navarrans and Catalans want to loosen the ties that bind them to the Castillian Government in Madrid. |
Can you briefly explain why they want this, or rather, why YOU think they want this? Could the puny regions of Pais Vasco and Navarra survive even a week without the backing of the Spanish government? What industries that Pais Vasco have? What, if anything, of importance, comes from there?
I suppose you also support the secession of Quebec from Canada? Fortunately for the Canadians, many sensible people realised what a serious mistake that would have been, and have since then come to understand it is better for them to remain a part of Canada.
| stillnosheep wrote: |
| They want to be released but the Madrid Government refuses to let them go. |
But why? What would be the advantage of being "released," as you say?
| stillnosheep wrote: |
Fortunately for the rest of us for the vast majority of the time the overwhelming majority of the people in Pays Basco, Navarra and Catalonia prosecute their struggle in a non-violent manner. |
Indeed....as I mentioned earlier, most reasonable and peace-loving people realise that violence is not the answer. If only ETA could adopt a similar strategy?
Oh but perhaps not.......shall we go back to our regularly-scheduled programming of bombing apartment buildings and hurting innocent people?
I remember in 2001, ETA was kind enough to blow up a parking structure less than a block away from where I was dining (near the Alonso Martinez metro in Madrid). In fact, my friend had parked her car there. Had we finished dinner 10 minutes earlier, we might have been a casualty of ETA.
Oh, but they are noble fighers aren't they? They only want what's best for their people, right?
| stillnosheep wrote: |
Madrid has a huge economic interest in continuing to thwart the attempts that the people in these areas are making to move towards national liberation! |
But why? What would they gain from that so-called "liberation"? They are already liberated, they keep their own language, cultures, customs, etc, and they vote for their own members in the Parliament.
Why not wake up and realise that Franco is gone....or are you an ethnic Basque, Catalan, etc who still wants revenge?
| stillnosheep wrote: |
| Or aren't you in favour of economic freedom! |
I am in favour of reason, civility, and peaceful living. You might want the same.
| stillnosheep wrote: |
| (Sorry I don't know it in Catalan (or euskeddi (spelling?) I can only speak Andalu) |
Perhaps you should learn Catalan or Euskera, that might teach you some more about the complex cultures and history of those people, so that you don't make such mistakes when trying to represent them. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: are the Catalans Spanish? |
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| SEndrigo wrote: |
| stillnosheep wrote: |
Or the fact that the overwhelming majority of Basques, Navarrans and Catalans want to loosen the ties that bind them to the Castillian Government in Madrid. |
Can you briefly explain why they want this...? |
I would rather let them speak for themselves on these matters. Their literature is readily available in Spain; in English and in Castillian.
| SEndrigo wrote: |
| Could the puny regions of Pais Vasco and Navarra survive even a week without the backing of the Spanish government? What industries that Pais Vasco have? What, if anything, of importance, comes from there? |
"[T]he puny regions of Pais Vasco and Navarra"??@!@!
These "puny regions", as you call them, along with Catalonia (which we were discussing but which you seem to have forgotten to mention), and Asturias (which I think it fair to include here as, although you didn't mention it in your original post, it is the other northern neighbour of Pais Vasco and was the other heavy industrial powerhouse asset-stripped by Franco after the Civil War) constitute the Industrial Powerhouse that was, and is, NE Spain. This was plundered and almost destroyed by Franco in an attempt to bring a modicum of prosperity to the central, southern and western, traditionally agrarian, and, for the most part pitifully poor, areas of Spain.
Please read any history of the Civil War or just about any (auto)biography of any Matador, especially those from Extremadura and Andalucia (which would just about cover them all, I think you'll find).
(And why did so many young men from these two regions of the extreme SW of Spain choose to travel from their homes to take up such a precarious and dangerous profession? Perhaps for the same reason that so many young men from the Bronx or Brooklyn became professional boxers, or that young men from Tennessee or Mississippi, or Liverpool, or Glasgow, join the US or the British army? To escape grinding, blinding, poverty. In the case of the villages in the interior of Andalucia and Extremadura it is only in the last couple of decades or so that many of them have been reached with mains water or mains electricity; or had their mud streets covered with a veneer of tarmacadam. Why do you think Extremadura is called Extremadura?)
Oh: Coal, Iron, Steel, Shipbuilding, Consumer Electronics, Banking and Finance, Computing, Agriculture, Tourism, Computing, Design, Fashion, Education, Art ... need I go on? Their seems no end to the industry, skill, imagination and enterprise of these people.
| SEndrigo wrote: |
| I suppose you also support the secession of Quebec from Canada? |
That is irrelevant, and a matter for the Qu�b�cois.
| SEndrigo wrote: |
| stillnosheep wrote: |
| They want to be released but the Madrid Government refuses to let them go. |
But why? What would be the advantage of being "released," as you say? |
Again you should ask them, not me. The important thing for us should be that this is their wish.
| SEndrigo wrote: |
| stillnosheep wrote: |
Madrid has a huge economic interest in continuing to thwart the attempts that the people in these areas are making to move towards national liberation! |
But why? What would they gain from that so-called "liberation"? They are already liberated, they keep their own language, cultures, customs, etc, and they vote for their own members in the Parliament. |
Again. You would have to ask them. Perhaps they do not feel "liberated". Perhaps they want the freedom to decide for themselves about how much liberation is sufficient for them rather than others deciding how much liberation they deserve for them.Perhaps they are just sick of the times when there languages and culture were illegal and their children taken away from then for speaking it in schools. Perhaps they are sick of their economies being plundered and feel that this is less likely to happen in the future within an EU of regions if they have a little more independence from Madrid. Perhaps they are just mad, illogical crazy Spaniards. Who knows!
| SEndrigo wrote: |
Perhaps you should learn to speak Catalan or Euskera, that might teach you some more about the complex cultures and history of those people, so that you don't make such mistakes when trying to represent them. |
I was simply countering your assertions about Catalonia, because I considered them inaccurate. I have never claimed to represent anybody. It is disingenuous of you to pretend otherwise.
Still I am glad that you are sounding much more reasonable than in your earlier posts. Gone seem to be the days when you asserted:
| Quote: |
Absolutely right, the Catalan people are definitely Spanish. yes they speak a different language, but the last time I checked, Catalonia is located in Spain. And the Catalan people have access to everything that Spaniards from others regions have access to.
So they want to take advantage of everything that Spain has to offer, want to get funded by the government, and yet they want to be independent. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
They just have a built-in bitterness and hostility directed towards "Spanish" people |
What was that about somebody needing to learn more of "the complex cultures and history of those people"?
Finally an apology to all my friends in Catalonia, Pays Vasco, Navarra and Asturias; as well as all those in Andalacia and Extremadura and elsewhere in Spain, for the two spelling mistakes (now hopefully corrected) that SEndrigo kindly pointed out in my original posting. As many of you already know I received no schooling in any of the languages of the many regions of Spain; picking up what little I do know in the fields of Gallicia, the pubs, clubs, streets and squares of Pamplona and the wholesale Markets of Malaga. On which note:
"A como va las papas ...?" |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hi stillnosheep,
I did not mention Catalonia in my previous message, because, it is a much more successful and prosperous region than either Pais Vasco and Navarra. In fact, most of the country's best banks are located in Catalonia.
No argument there....but I still stand by my statement that Catalonia could never survive on its own. Fortunately, most Catalans understand this as well.
I was mainly referring to the poorer regions of Spain. There's no denying that Pais Vasco, Navarra, Extremadura, etc are not as economically successful as Castilla y Leon. In fact, it's not even close!
Part of the reason why Spain has lagged far behind other European countries is because of the poorer regions.
Seceding from Spain is not a reasonable solution....a better solution is to help these poorer regions develop some viable industries and become economic powerhouses. Many of the industries you've mentioned, are not viable in the eyes of the EU and other nations. Nothing changes the fact that regions such as Pais Vasco, Navarra, etc. are poorer, when compared to Castilla y Leon, and other European countries.
But about making the regions more successful...how can this be done? There aren't any easy answers...but this is for the Spanish government and people to decide, not us.
I never once claimed that the people of these regions were not creative, hard-working, etc. All Spaniards deserve a high quality of life and good job opportunities.
Yes, Franco was horrible and his repression of the Catalans, Basques, etc was atrocious. But when do we start living in the present and doing the things necessary to make these regions more successful?
We should be careful to understand the plight of the people of Spain, especially those in regions such as Pais Vasco, Extremadura, etc.
But we must also be careful not to let it blind us, to the point that we start being sympathetic towards terrorists such as ETA.
Killing other people in cold blood is wrong, even if Franco was a terrible person, it does not give the Basque terrorists any right to kill innocent Spaniards. |
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Mouse
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, handbags at twenty paces, gentlemen.
I'm going to stay pretty much out of this, as I agree with certain things that both of you (Sendrigo and StillNoSheep [bloody Aberdaugleddau type that you are!  ]) have said. Still...
In Catalan, viva is visca, so it's "Visca Catalunya".
I was under the impression that the Basque Country, especially the industrial powerhouse of Bilbao, was one of the most affluent areas of Spain. Still, I could well be wrong.
Living in Catalonia, I hear both sides of the argument for independence, sometimes from the same people, but my personal take on the matter has already been expressed: it's a part of Spain. As to whether it ought to be independent, whether it would be sustainable at a European level, is really something that I'm not sufficiently informed about to discuss.
I will say that in my opinion, freedom fighters/guerrillas are only a step away from terrorists, and that generally I have little or no sympathy for groups who attack civilians, wherever they be from (whether it be ETA, Al'Queda, IRA, or Y Mabion Glyndwr). |
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Mouse
Joined: 24 Dec 2003
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, and Sendrigo, I don't commute to Barcelona (which would take about an hour from where I live) -- I work out in the countryside (figuratively speaking). |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mouse wrote: |
| Wow, handbags at twenty paces, gentlemen. |
haha, no worries, I'll go easy on stillnosheep....I can definitely relate with the Welsh people !!!
| Mouse wrote: |
| I was under the impression that the Basque Country, especially the industrial powerhouse of Bilbao, was one of the most affluent areas of Spain. Still, I could well be wrong. |
Right, Bilbao is affluent, but not the rest of Pais Vasco....if you ask a typical Spaniard where he/she wants to go for work, you'll find few people who would choose Bilbao. There's no doubt that PV has many industries, but none successful enough to allow PV to survive on its own. But as mentioned earlier, they are already given tremendous autonomy by the Spanish government.
[quote="Mouse"]Living in Catalonia, I hear both sides of the argument for independence, sometimes from the same people, but my personal take on the matter has already been expressed: it's a part of Spain. As to whether it ought to be independent, whether it would be sustainable at a European level, is really something that I'm not sufficiently informed about to discuss.[quote="Mouse"]
Agree wholeheartedly, it's just as you said earlier: you are Welsh, but you consider yourself British as well. Wales is part of Britain....just as Catalonia is part of Spain.
As for whether PV and other regions could survive on their own, take a look at the fact that Spain already lags behind many other European countries (economically speaking), even though recently there has been tremendous growth.
If a united Spain has trouble competing, how on earth would a region like Extremadura be able to survive?
And, a united Spain is better since it allows visitors and residents alike to experience many wonderful customs and languages, all within a few hours drive of each other.
This is the beauty of Spain, you can experience the great Castillian culture in Castilla y Leon, the wonderful food of PV, and the fantastic art of Catalonia.
There are not many other countries that have such a nice mixture of cultures and languages in one. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mouse,
Uhhm. Yeah, I've always thought of Bilbao as an industrial powerhouse with a bit of a great museum attached!
We all agree that Catalonia and Pais Vasco, as well as Asturias, Galicia etc. are currently part of the political entity known as Espana. What was at issue was whether the peoples of some of these areas are 'Spanish'.
That is for the peoples of these areas to decide. Each has their own geographical region, history, language and culture. In the case of the Euskeddi their language is completely unrelated to any other language spoken in Spain. It is not even a latin language. It is not even an indo-european language. And as for their sports!
They people stem from a very different tradition. In a Europe of regions they will have the right to negotiate their own relationship with Spain. No matter how many death squads Madrid sends to argue otherwise.
Sendrigo:
Please stop changing the subject.
My points were
1. There has been a low level civil war running between elements within the Spanish state and substantial parts of the Basque people for, at least 35 yrs.
This you appear to have conceded.
2. The majority of the people of Pais Vasco/Navarra and Catalonia desire looser ties with Madrid.
This is matter of historical note.
Your point was that the people of catalonia desire
| Quote: |
| to take advantage of everything that Spain has to offer, [they] want to get funded by the government, and yet they want to be independent. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. |
My point was that to the extent that they wish themselves independence, they wish themselves independence, with all that entails.
The rest is just waffle. |
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SEndrigo
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| stillnosheep wrote: |
They people stem from a very different tradition. In a Europe of regions they will have the right to negotiate their own relationship with Spain. No matter how many death squads Madrid sends to argue otherwise. |
Oh really? So ETA is not a death squad?
I wonder when they will strike next....are they waiting until people get over the horrific Al Qaeda bombing?
You keep going back and forth on the issue....first you say, those regions should be independent. I ask you why, and you tell me, "I don't know, it's up to them to decide."
If you can't give specific reasons (and back them up with facts) on why those regions should be independent, why bring up the topic?
We could be talking about something else....Spanish women for example (that's a lot more interesting than ETA and Spanish politics) !
| stillnosheep wrote: |
| 1. There has been a low level civil war running between elements within the Spanish state and substantial parts of the Basque people for, at least 35 yrs. This you appear to have conceded. |
You would be perfect as an American newscaster....the sheer terror and chaos those words inspire!
Other than a few terrorists, most Basque people do get along with other Spaniards and the government. Every Basque person I know, wants ETA to stop terrorising the country and wants peace. Not a low-level civil war, as you've mentioned.
Though you seem not to agree with this, in spite of the overwhelming evidence in front of you?
| stillnosheep wrote: |
2. The majority of the people of Pais Vasco/Navarra and Catalonia desire looser ties with Madrid.
This is matter of historical note. |
What you don't understand is, they already have almost complete autonomy. They get to vote on laws specific to their regions, have their own members in the Parliament, and are given lots of funding by the Spanish government.
This is not the Spain of Franco, but some people still think that it is.
Catalonia, Pais Vasco, etc love the money they get from the government (and they get loads of it!). They get to vote on their own laws, have their own members in Parliament, they keep their own language in their cities and schools, and benefit economically from being a part of Spain and the EU.
Before blindly crying out for "independence", why not take a look at the facts?
Stop feeling sorry for those regions....they are milking the country blind! |
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Eric Paice
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:05 am Post subject: |
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The worst attack ETA have made so far took place a few years back when they blew up a Corte Ingles supermarket in Barcelona during peak shopping hours.
I'd like stillnosheep to explain why blowing up a supermarket in Catalonia helped their political cause against "the bad guys" in Madrid.
Another questions is that if all of these northern states became independent countries, how would they join the European Union? Their economies would have to be aligned to the EU rules etc. etc. A huge dose of reality is needed here. The wild romanticism of Hemingway should be tempered with common sense.
A large number of businesses in the basque region have to pay "protection" money to ETA or suffer the consequences. Like get shot, kidnapped or worse have it happen to your family. I'm sure they're real happy with ETA and they wish them a long and fruitful existence ... NOT |
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