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Gulezar
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 483
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 Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| To the best of my knowledge - and please do correct me if I am mistaken - the preponderance of "master's degrees" in T.E.S.O.L. and similar do not contain a practical component. |
I am pleased to correct you. You are mistaken. I just checked my transcript and there is a class called "Directed Field Experience in TESOL". This was a class in which theory was applied. We taught classes under supervision. The class is now called "Practicum".
You might wish to go to various university websites and find out which ones do not provide any application of the courses. Some universities might provide a Masters and then also require other classes for Teaching K-12 qualification; however, my teaching certification never got me any salary increase in the Gulf. I must say that the lessons for six graders are just about on the mark for most Foundation students. I did the K-12 teaching certification after the Masters in TESOL. |
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| You can know them all inside-out and still be no better or worse instructor than someone who never heard even the word pedagogy. Not only that, but all these methods notwithstanding, the ineluctable old truth remains: If you want to acquire knowledge (foreign languages included) quickly and effectively, there is NO substitute to YOU (the student's) sitting your ass down and doing some good old-fashioned memorization. Period. |
I don't go in for a lot of BS and cotton candy crap, but the truth is the various models by which one can approach language learning tell me what you have said above is at best ill-informed. Sitting one's ass down and memorizing will not translate as effectively as other methods into real language proficiency. That's simply nonsense and goes against not only research in neuropsychology, psychology and psycholinguistic theory, simple learning theories, and language learning theories specifically. It also doesn't make a lot of common sense to me. Methodologies struggle to apply theory and research, but no one seriously believes any one method is the method, yet each one has some value, even memorization, albeit little.
When traveling in the Lake Turkana region of Northern Kenya I encountered some amazing young tribesmen. Because of drought thier families had been forced to move in close proximity to other tribes by the lake as fishing became their only option for survival. The first generation of these tribesmen were speaking 3 and even 4 languages. I don't think they'd learned them from memorizing lists, do you? |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Here's a detail... some MAs don't include a practicum, but require that one's first degree did. There is a huge variation in MA programs just within the US. Actually that student teaching that I did 20+ years before my MA didn't tell me anything about teaching ESL, but the experience handling a group of 12/13 year olds was good prep for teaching university students in the Gulf. 
As to methodology, I think all of them are right for some learners and none of them work for all learners. Therein lies our biggest problem. Also, those young men who grow up learning 3 or 4 languages start as young children and learn out of need. That is not comparable to a bunch of adolescents who don't see why they are being forced to learn English. They will probably have to do more memorizing... if only to pass required exams.
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Memorizing often disparate details of a language to pass a test isn't learning a language. Learning a language at an early age of course is easier, without a doubt, however, to say the way we learn as youngsters is unrelated to the way we learn as adults is nonsense. Most language learning methods are just perspectives of this process in action. So to say that we cannot compare the way tribesman learn and the young men is KSA learn a language makes little sense to me. The human mind is the human mind. If the comparison doesn't hold, it's because these young men in Saudi aren't really learning the language. |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| rollingk wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You can know them all inside-out and still be no better or worse instructor than someone who never heard even the word pedagogy. Not only that, but all these methods notwithstanding, the ineluctable old truth remains: If you want to acquire knowledge (foreign languages included) quickly and effectively, there is NO substitute to YOU (the student's) sitting your ass down and doing some good old-fashioned memorization. Period. |
I don't go in for a lot of BS and cotton candy crap, but the truth is the various models by which one can approach language learning tell me what you have said above is at best ill-informed. Sitting one's ass down and memorizing will not translate as effectively as other methods into real language proficiency. That's simply nonsense and goes against not only research in neuropsychology, psychology and psycholinguistic theory, simple learning theories, and language learning theories specifically. It also doesn't make a lot of common sense to me. Methodologies struggle to apply theory and research, but no one seriously believes any one method is the method, yet each one has some value, even memorization, albeit little. |
I did not at all mean memorization as the be-all and end-all! My point was that ANY methodology fails unless the student invests an independent effort into the studies and that DOES mean things such as poring over vocabulary lists, reading about grammar rules, as well as - most importantly and crucially - willfully and extensively exposing him/herself to the target language, ideally via written and oral/aural material.
In my own case, learning the French conjugation tables (yes: *shock horror*) enabled me to achieve an automaticity in that aspect of grammar, such as no other method would have. Meanwhile, corresponding with a drop-dead gorgeous Senegalese girl in French augmented my vocabulary bank (and a host of other banks  ).
| Quote: |
| When traveling in the Lake Turkana region of Northern Kenya I encountered some amazing young tribesmen. Because of drought thier families had been forced to move in close proximity to other tribes by the lake as fishing became their only option for survival. The first generation of these tribesmen were speaking 3 and even 4 languages. I don't think they'd learned them from memorizing lists, do you? |
No. It happened (1) out of necessity (cf. Saudi students to whom that applies to little, if any, degree), (2) through intensive active daily usage of the language (cf. Saudi students whose only exposure to English are usually the few hours of class five days a week), and (3) being - for all intents and purposes - immersed in the target language (which is not applicable to Saudi students at all).
That being the case, a conscientious student will assay to recreate those conditions for him/herself insofar as possible in his/her environment. And therein lies the rub: Saudi students tend to lack the motivation to do anything with their ass except drive it around and sit it in shisha cafes. And there is no methodology in the world that can help that. |
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Mashkif, both of your points are dead-on, which is in fact why I believe a knowledge of language learning theory can be useful. We need all the help possible to set up scenarios for language learning as there are very few naturally occurring ones in KSA.
As for automaticity from memorizing conjugation lists, I suspect the actualization of usuage brought about this fluidity, and was therefore the true modus of language learning. Course it's true that you gotta have something to write with, despite having a hundred things to say.
Could be totally wrong though. |
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cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Fake it until you make it! |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| mashkif wrote: |
I did go off on a tangent up there, but my point actually concerned the value - real or perceived - of a master's in applied linguistics versus a master's in T.E.F.L. and the like.
Bottom line (in my view): If you're going to cough up thousands of bucks for a master's degree and spend at least a year and a half pursuing it, an extra $1,500 for doing it in applied linguistics is certainly worth it. I mean, not for nothing, but can one really declare with genuine pride "I have a master's degree in T.E.F.L."!?  |
| and wrote: |
And learning how to teach (or, even better, the theories theorists have posited about how to teach) IS an indication of one's ability to "convey the knowledge effectively"?!
To the best of my knowledge - and please do correct me if I am mistaken - the preponderance of "master's degrees" in T.E.S.O.L. and similar do not contain a practical component. That means that not only do you not actually stand in front of a classroom for dozens of hours applying those facocta theories, but you don't even learn ABOUT the language, certainly not anywhere near the extent to which you do with applied linguistics. |
| and again wrote: |
| I did not at all mean memorization as the be-all and end-all! My point was that ANY methodology fails unless the student invests an independent effort into the studies and that DOES mean things such as poring over vocabulary lists, reading about grammar rules, as well as - most importantly and crucially - willfully and extensively exposing him/herself to the target language, ideally via written and oral/aural material. |
| lastly wrote: |
| That being the case, a conscientious student will assay to recreate those conditions for him/herself insofar as possible in his/her environment. And therein lies the rub: Saudi students tend to lack the motivation to do anything with their ass except drive it around and sit it in shisha cafes. And there is no methodology in the world that can help that. |
Sure, we can all agree that there's a culture of enabling (or rather, "disabling") learners. But, since you initially connected the teachers' academic credentials to the quality of teaching, exactly how do your last comments tie into your (passionate) stance that a teacher with an MA in Applied Linguistics is the better (i.e., apparently more successful) instructor compared to his/her peers who hold an MA in TESOL, specifically in the context of teaching Saudi students? |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| Sure, we can all agree that there's a culture of enabling (or rather, "disabling") learners. But, since you initially connected the teachers' academic credentials to the quality of teaching, exactly how do your last comments tie into your (passionate) stance that a teacher with an MA in Applied Linguistics is the better (i.e., apparently more successful) instructor compared to his/her peers who hold an MA in TESOL, specifically in the context of teaching Saudi students? |
I never "connected the teachers' academic credentials to the quality of teaching." Sorry if it came across that way. If anything, one of my main points was that a master's in NEITHER applied linguistics nor T.E.F.L., etc. is necessary to be effective in the classroom. I thought I had made clear the absurdity of needing to study cockamamie pedagogical theories in order to be able to help someone learn a language.
For me, the distinction between applied linguistics and T.E.F.L. is one of personal worth. Applied linguistics is a subject in which one learns interesting facts about the science of language acquisition, the development of language, and similar. T.E.F.L. and similar are about theories of teaching, which I find an utter waste of time. There is nothing you can learn there that you cannot benefit from by doing a C.E.L.T.A. or Trinity's certification. The ONLY value of such a master's would be if it contained a massive practical component, well above and beyond what certifications provide. With that in mind, insofar as getting a master's degree is necessary, one in applied linguistics is more informative and more interesting from the sheer perspective of supposedly natural human curiosity and academic pursuit.
Lastly, all the above - sharp-tongued as it might be - IS my personal view. We're all entitled to have one. |
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cultofpersonality
Joined: 12 Jan 2012
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Mashkif...which MA did you do if any?
I find it quite shocking that you feel learning different pedagogical approaches is useless. Then again, it is your opinion and everyone is entitled to one no matter how flawed it may seem. When you are confronted with certain situations in the classroom it's good to have an arsenal of methods which can help you solve a problem. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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The best, most effective, teacher that I ever worked with had no certs of any kind and her MA was in Criminal Justice. IMHO, some people are teachers and some won't be even if they have a few certs and a half dozen MAs.
They usually end up being in management... and they aren't very good at that either.
VS |
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rollingk
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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IMHO, some people are teachers and some won't be even if they have a few certs and a half dozen MAs.
They usually end up being in management... and they aren't very good at that either. Cool
VS |
I agree, but I think formal training can sharpen those of us who are not stellar to begin with.
But yes, if there's no facility to enhance, those without often take their then useless degrees and become "managers of people". |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| rollingk wrote: |
When traveling in the Lake Turkana region of Northern Kenya I encountered some amazing young tribesmen. Because of drought thier families had been forced to move in close proximity to other tribes by the lake as fishing became their only option for survival. The first generation of these tribesmen were speaking 3 and even 4 languages. I don't think they'd learned them from memorizing lists, do you? |
You have to have the" production" part of the Communicative Language learning system where they use their language patterns under conditions that English users use them everyday. Their is no concern in the KSA for the Communicative method of Language learning. There is no "production" in the learning process, maybe because anytime a teacher in the KSA tries to include something like that, the students complain, it's difficult, and Saudis don't do that. The smart students are probably watching American TV along with Arabic captions and then practicing it on the English teachers. |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| cultofpersonality wrote: |
Mashkif...which MA did you do if any?
I find it quite shocking that you feel learning different pedagogical approaches is useless. Then again, it is your opinion and everyone is entitled to one no matter how flawed it may seem. When you are confronted with certain situations in the classroom it's good to have an arsenal of methods which can help you solve a problem. |
Applied linguistics, computer science, and business administration. No, I'm not lying, and no, I did not get them "online."
It's also beside the point. You're correct when you say "When you are confronted with certain situations in the classroom it's good to have an arsenal of methods which can help you solve a problem," but a "humble" C.E.L.T.A. will equip you with such an arsenal at least as well (in fact, better, because you will get to practice it in a real classroom) than any master's.
Put it this way: You can read about bicycles at great length. You can know the physics and mechanics of it inside-out. But until you get in the saddle, you're scarcely any better or worse rider than someone who never saw a bike except in a picture. Teaching is a vocational skill, not a knowledge: It is honed far and away principally through practice, not learning ABOUT it.
As I said though, this is all a matter of opinion and we all know what opinion is worth. |
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mashkif
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| The best, most effective, teacher that I ever worked with had no certs of any kind and her MA was in Criminal Justice. IMHO, some people are teachers and some won't be even if they have a few certs and a half dozen MAs.[...] |
Exactly. Reminds me of an argument I once had about business faculty needing to have a terminal degree (i.e. Ph.D.). I asked them who they'd rather have teaching business majors: Some guy who spent a decade jacking off on a bunch of "models" and "theories" and who churned out three dozen articles and five books on it, or a guy who may have been a college dropout but successfully led a huge global enterprise for a decade (e.g. Steve Jobs).
The same applies to language teaching. |
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