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SunShan
Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 107
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 Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| natsume wrote: |
A cautionary tale;
After my years in Japan I returned to the states to an MA/credential program. I had been on the fence about going in either the credentialed (PGCE) route or the MA TESOL (+) route, and decided I would try the MA/cred. to (hopefully) eventually work in international schools. The promise of money and stability being the deciding factor, despite some serious ambiguity about whether or not I really wanted to actually do this.
That ambiguity never went away, and after student teaching here in the states, and finishing roughly half of that MA/cred. program, I realized that I had made the wrong decision. For me. I don't want to be relegated to working just with kids, and I really was not liking the reality of working in American high schools today.
I'm shifting gears, and entering an MA TESOL program next year. If you go the credential route, particularly if you are an American, make sure you are very close to 100% clear that that is what you want. |
I hear ya, which is why I'm going to keep my options as open as possible. I'm going to do some voluntary work in a couple of UK schools and get a feel for what age I want to teach. Two of my old uni mates are qualifying next month with QTS secondary English (my preferred choice at present), and they've really enjoyed it. They said it's been rewarding as the students are beginning to think and express themselves; they enjoy listening to their students' opinions on literature and language.
Assuming I then go ahead with QTS, I want to do a Master's after, which should leave me open to go down a number of routes in many countries (int. schools, unis, language schools etc.) and potentially interchange between them. That being said, I won't let any qualification burden me. I was an electrician before, and it doesn't bother me for a second that I may never use those skills or bits of paper again. I wouldn't have a problem working, say, in a Thai public school that only requires a degree & CELTA - for the cultural experience, especially in a poorer rural location.
I'm going to do what's best for me, but after considering everyone's advice, I'd much rather have a loaded gun than go out with just two bullets (degree & CELTA).
Appreciate your thoughts. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Check out profellows for scholarships. They have a great database.
Yes, I'm at a uni but it's against the rules to study and work at it. Same prob at my own uni. A guy I worked with started a PhD at the same uni where he was working and they gave him a choice: stop the PhD or quit his job. He choose the former. They say it's a conflict of interests.
Some places won't even let you study a PhD elsewhere stating that you would have enough time to do you classes. Another friend of mine was told that. He quit and moved to Macau where he's doing a researchc PhD through NZ. Free because he's a kiwi. It would cost me at least 20k a year. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| All three universities where I have worked support PhD study among their teachers, whether it's at the same institution or another one. Some time consideration is given, and even occasionally some funding. It is by no means 'standard' everywhere that universities don't support this; it looks good for the university to have more PhDs as instructors. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree. It seems to be bad luck of the draw, though common where I am. |
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SunShan
Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Just to further this discussion somewhat:
If you have/had the chance, will/would you prioritise the QTS/teaching licence route, or the MA + DELTA route? And why? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Teaching license if you want to work with kiddies. MA for universities. DELTA for teacher training, school management.
I personally have a CELTA equivalent (from 1998) and an MA (working on PhD) specifically because I wanted university work. I'm allergic to kids.
Last edited by spiral78 on Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Shroob
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 1339
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| SunShan wrote: |
Just to further this discussion somewhat:
If you have/had the chance, will/would you prioritise the QTS/teaching licence route, or the MA + DELTA route? And why? |
Personally...MA + DELTA.
I have worked with children before (aged 4-11) and it wasn't for me. I've a little experience with older children (12-16) and that was better, but still not for me. Whereas I have thoroughly enjoyed teaching 16+ (I usually say 18+ but there I've met some great 16/17 year olds). So I know where my interests are.
In two months I'll have my MA, which will hopefully lay the foundations for a PhD in around 5 years or so. Before that I'd like to get a DELTA or equivalent, I've been looking into a route to get TEFL-Q, apparently you don't have to do the full DELTA but only the observed lessons if you have an MA in a relevant field. |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| SunShan wrote: |
Just to further this discussion somewhat:
If you have/had the chance, will/would you prioritise the QTS/teaching licence route, or the MA + DELTA route? And why? |
I was at this crossroads once. After teaching EFL for nearly 10 years, I was considering going back to university in the US for teacher certification. Eventually, I decided that I wasn't interested in teaching in schools, and was much more interested in teaching EAP at universities. So, I pursued an MA. Then I realized I was also interested in research and in teacher training, so I pursued a PhD. |
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suphanburi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| SunShan wrote: |
Just to further this discussion somewhat:
If you have/had the chance, will/would you prioritise the QTS/teaching licence route, or the MA + DELTA route? And why? |
Having become certified as a teacher and qualified for tertiary work I can only add that it really does depend on you and the ages you like to work with.
QTS does you little good for work at the tertiary level or in research but it is an absolute requirement if you want to make a career in mainstream teaching.
QTS and an English and Linguistics degree will get you just about as far as you want to go in TEFL and give you a chance to test the waters before you make the commitment to pursue an MA and a career path choice (high school teacher or tertiary lecturer).
The MA/DELTA (and then PhD) is fine for going the "tertiary work" route but the demand "in your field" (you did say something about being a literature teacher?) is divergent from this route.
QTS and an English and Linguistics degree will get you just about as far and leave more doors open to you.
The MA/DELTA and QTS when combined is an impressive set of TEFL credentials and will get you work just about anywhere on the planet doing just about anything you want to do in TEFL.
IF you want to work abroad then there are 2 issues:
1) Is the subject you want to teach a subject that is taught abroad and is it taught in English?
2) If you want to teach abroad and want to teach in English then the largest market is in TEFL and with kids. Is that something you see yourself doing for a lifetime?
Get your 1st qualification, get into the field and see what you like and what you don't.
Then get the qualifications to move onward and upward along that path.
(There is a lot to be said for earn while you learn rather than borrow your future away (crippling yourself with student debt) on something you may not like to do).
The most important piece of advice I can give is to
let your path in life determine your additional qualifications and NOT vice versa.
Planning to those levels at this stage is what you do BEFORE life intervenes.
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SunShan
Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| suphanburi wrote: |
you did say something about being a literature teacher?
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Well, for secondary QTS (12-18 ) the way it works in the UK (apologies if I'm stating what you already know) is that you have to have at least 50% of your undergraduate degree in a subject to teach that subject. In my case, English (Literature) and Linguistics (English Language) are 50% each, so I'll be qualified to teach both.
However, it gets a little confusing as 'English' is commonly an umbrella term in which both literature and language are taught together as one GCSE (GCSE English). Actually this bugs me because they can be two very different subjects - there's a big difference between analysing poetry and Shakespeare, and defining the difference between phonemes and syllables, for example. Literature is often open to interpretation, whereas Linguistics is a scientific discipline working with facts. Even analysing linguistic discourse for language meaning requires rigid critical frameworks/methodologies. That being said, the two subjects naturally intertwine at times with, for example: teaching persuasive language, paragraph structure and writing essays etc. I think this is why there is some ambiguity with these two subjects.
At A-level (16-18, for those that don't know) there is more of a defined split where a student can pick either literature or language specifically as a single subject. In fact, I think my degree gives me the upper hand over some of my friends who did just literature degrees. They're going to struggle when they start to look at morphemes, grammar, the IPA chart and how speech sounds are physically articulated etc. etc. If indeed they are allowed to teach it that is.
At primary level (5-11), a teachers degree to get QTS can be pretty much in any subject as you'll be teaching the kiddies math, science, geography, history, literacy etc etc. This is the age range that I suspect will have the biggest TEFL market, as you said. I don't think it's for me though; a bit too young.
So I'm kind of hoping that being QTS in English Literature and Language will be subjects that help me get positions in the future. Will these be in demand? Do companies/schools just state 'must be QTS' and don't really care what you were teaching? Or what age range? I'm assuming, having never taught in an int. school, that at secondary level the children are taught by specific teachers for specific subjects. So I obviously can't apply to teach Maths, whereas primary teachers are more or less one position fits all from what I can see.
One of my concerns is that there may not be as many subject specific positions going in relation to primary teachers. I know there's a lot of demand in the UK and abroad for Science, Maths, IT and Foreign Languages as subject teaching. When I last checked in the UK, most QTS courses were offering £20,000 bursary no matter your degree result for these 'in demand' subjects - severe shortage of teachers in these areas. As English is a popular and competitive subject (like P.E) it's either £6,000-£9,000. A huge difference. I wonder if the TEFL world reflects this.
Your advice is good though and it would be silly for me to qualify before taking the path. It's funny you should say that because my plan a few years ago was to do the MA TESOL straight after my undergrad degree (convenient as my uni offered it). At that time I'd never even taught one foreign student or had a clue what it was all about. Even now, having done the CELTA, I just wouldn't consider the MA TESOL without some decent experience.
Sorry for going on too much. Hopefully, some may find it interesting how things work in the UK, and this thread will help others in the future. |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| For me I like teaching uni kids. I've taught kids as young as 18 months. I have a child, but I found my niche. International schools have Many perks but they're not for me. Teaching at uni also has many perks for the record. Find what you enjoy and you will be successful at it. You can work your way up in both fields. |
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SunShan
Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| naturegirl321 wrote: |
| Teaching at uni also has many perks for the record. |
I'm guessing everywhere is slightly different, but:
1. How does teaching work at uni in your experience?
In the UK, we had lectures in a large theatre, then seminars in classrooms.
When I studied Mandarin at Beijing's BLCU, it was more like school language classes in a classroom.
2. What is the material you're delivering?
I'm assuming the uni students have a good grasp of English and you're delivering something like EAP? |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: |
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1. How does teaching work at uni in your experience?
I've taught at four unis. Two in Peru. Two in Korea. Most classes have 15-25 students. I've had fewer and I've had one class wih 60. Hey usually meet once or twice a week.
2. What is the material you're delivering?
This and my last uni had in-house material and regular course books. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's just absolutely bad. Hats putting it nicely.
I'm assuming the uni students have a good grasp of English and you're delivering something like EAP?
It varies. Sometimes there English is fantastic. Sometimes it's not. It's best when unis arrange students by English skill and not years and majors. I've taught undergrad and grad classes and teachers at the uni. It's a mixed bag. |
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Neutrino Girl
Joined: 01 Apr 2010
Posts: 128
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
Teaching license if you want to work with kiddies. MA for universities. DELTA for teacher training, school management.
I personally have a CELTA equivalent (from 1998) and an MA (working on PhD) specifically because I wanted university work. I'm allergic to kids. |
Same here; CELTA and MA. I can't stand teaching kids; have done it in the past and swore to never do it again unless I became desperate. I much prefer university work. |
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SunShan
Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Neutrino Girl wrote: |
| spiral78 wrote: |
Teaching license if you want to work with kiddies. MA for universities. DELTA for teacher training, school management.
I personally have a CELTA equivalent (from 1998) and an MA (working on PhD) specifically because I wanted university work. I'm allergic to kids. |
Same here; CELTA and MA. I can't stand teaching kids; have done it in the past and swore to never do it again unless I became desperate. I much prefer university work. |
In keeping with the newbie status (me), the way I see it, a newbie has no choice but to work with kids. The majority of starting positions are in kindergartens, language chains or schools. There seem to be a few exceptions, like being lucky and getting a uni place, or teaching only adults 1-1 somewhere like GABA in Japan - though pay is poor along with many other negatives.
Even if a newbie had a CELTA & MA before starting, the lack of any teaching experience is going to mean uni work is hard to find (and rightly so). I'm guessing three years' experience is needed before realistically applying and being accepted at a university (and being eligible for the DELTA).
I only have the CELTA, so I figure: Why not get paid (well) teaching kids for those three years with QTS - £21000/$35,675 a year for the two qualified years; easily enough to save for an MA and with a third of MA credits already completed doing the PGCE. If I teach TEFL for three years, I can't see that I'd easily be able to save enough for an MA (apart from Korea or the Middle East; not interested in those countries). I prefer to attend a red brick university rather than online too.
Either way, I've got to teach kids, but this way I'll be guided to teach to a very high level and my experience will be valued by international schools; I get to teach subjects I love and, having looked into doing a PGCE, there's the chance to also incorporate Drama, which sounds like a whole lot of fun, and useful in the future to help relieve students' inhibitions and generally have a laugh. I will probably go the uni route further down the line.
A caveat for me is also the fact that a CELTA, MA and DELTA are fairly useless in the UK. I don't wanna come back, but you just never know - loved one with long-term illness, war declared abroad, on the run for being unjustly accused of a crime in corrupt third-world-country... |
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