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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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 Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: |
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While my NEWSFLASH comment is rather extreme - partly to be more dramatic which is a weakness of mine - I think it has a grain of truth behind it.
Not all management types are scum - but a lot are pretty rubbish - we have all seen this even in the better places.
If you encounter one who is good or at least not bad then you have truly 'lucked out.'
I think it is possible to work through the system and find your niche if you are not too demanding - you may get most of what you want but will seldom get it all. Such is life.
I personally don't see places striving to be professional in Vietnam. I don't get out much it's true so maybe I've missed them but they are basically about the money. Only the money. Again - this is life in a capitalist system which by and large does not work except for the very few at the top.
I don't think I'm unduly jaded. I used to an idealist but I'm better now. Part of the role of boards like this is to counter the slew of propaganda poured out by the bigger employers. It varies from outright lying by the worst places to mild misrepresentation by the better places.
Even the vaunted BC in HaNoi is far from perfect, though it can be a good deal for the right type of teacher. I doubt the students receive anything approaching value for money though. |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| skarper wrote: |
NEWS FLASH - TEFL is not a serious job more of an alternative lifestyle and this is especially so in Vietnam. Do not come here if you expect a professional working environment - you will not find it even in the best of best of what's left. |
While I can agree that a good number of the no-name English centers which open up and employ 2-4 teachers definitely fit that description, to throw all schools in Vietnam out with them is misguided extreme. There are schools out there that strive to be professional and retain their good teachers. I've been lucky enough to work for a few places whose values on education and student care are the same as my own. Of course at the end of the day, the school is still a business which needs to make money to stay open, but not every one is trying to squeeze the students and teachers for every penny they can.
Some people are obviously a bit jaded and have experienced a lot of the bad Vietnam has to offer. But the attitude that management is the scum and just out to degrade and ruin good teachers is the attitude that will result in finding yourself pushing 50, still in the classroom, no savings, and prospects for promotion or betting your lifestyle.
That might sound fine to some. I've known a lot of people who are perfectly happy to live hand to mouth for the rest of their days. It's just not where I hope to be in 10-20 years. |
No no no. I have experienced the best employer in Vietnam-a couple of years and have seen how well it works. They don't share your views on 1 obs per year being horrible. They trust people to do their jobs. I am not sure you do. So, as I know what Vietnam has to offer, I am making informed comment. Overseas candidates need to probe much more during the interview regarding probationary months and how exactly performance is determined with very clear rules...who contacts who, where, how and by what methods. My comments on recruitment contrast between the worst and best, on frequency of observations, are all from having experienced from worst, to okay, to best over the past 7 years. |
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Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave_1 wrote: |
| Okie from Muskogee wrote: |
| ieltsteacher102 wrote: |
managers are thugs bullies  schools/managers can enter your classroom at anytime and observe you why not afraid you are a substandard teacher and the best observations are ones that are unannounced any moron can deliver a proper lesson if given time the most important thing is can you deliver the goods day after day and yeah schools can also speak to your students at any time some of the comments in this thread are from people who cant teach and have emotional problems---- i agree that surveys should be illegal if not in contract  if you cant handle the heat get out of the kitchen |
I generally agree. Previously, when I had unannounced visits in my classroom, I direct my class's attention to the visitor.
"Hello Jock! Welcome to our classroom!"
"Class say hello to mr. Jock!" "Hello mr. Jock!"
"Do any of you have any questions about mr. Jock?"
"Mr. Jock, how old are you?"
"Where are you from?"
"Are you married?"
.........
makes my job a lot easier.  |
esp when Mr Jock calls you in for meet 2 weeks later and fires you. Thanks Jock. |
Wow! I never knew white DoS or ADoS had the authority to fire people. I always thought they were just stooges for the viet owners.
Actually, Jock was always afraid that I'd take over his job because I was mature, good looking, charismatic, and popular with students. He was always afraid to have a constructive meeting with me because I would embarrass him with my common sense. Only thing he got going better than me was a piece of paper that said MA of some BS. When I quit for a better job, I told him I never had interest in his position because I'm a nice okie.
Anyway, I'd say approx. 99.9% of language schools in vietnam suck in terms of management. I ain't joking. BUT! Life in vietnam is good.... |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| Dave_1 wrote: |
They don't share your views on 1 obs per year being horrible. They trust people to do their jobs. I am not sure you do. |
It's not about trust. It's about bettering yourself as a teacher. If you think you're too good to be observed and evaluated, then you're probably a lousy teacher. I'm not saying that's what you are... just if the shoe fits, and all that.
I see a lot of teachers talking about how experienced and knowledgeable about teaching they are. They seem to think they don't have anything else to learn. They complain how they're smarter, better looking, more caring, and generally better people than their bosses. But a cold, hard reality check is that the majority of the "teachers" in Vietnam are not qualified, and have been doing things wrong for years and years. Sure, you might have a certificate, but even a CELTA is only supposed to be an introduction to teaching. It's not teacher training, and it doesn't qualify you in nearly any developed country. If you look into teaching in places like Dubai, most of the teachers there have their MAs as a starting point. The ones with the better jobs have their Ph.Ds and are working on additional ones. In the US you won't get a teaching job without a degree.
So it really boggles the mind when you come to the armpit of the EFL world that is SE Asia, and see all these people with their TESOL certificates who have deluded themselves into thinking they are the beginning and end of all EFL knowledge and experience. I've met "teachers" who have been in Vietnam teaching for 20 years, but when I've observed their classes, they're terrible. They're making numerous mistakes they aren't even aware of. A lot of the mistakes are simple things they could fix if they were observed and debriefed by someone trained to do it. Some of the mistakes are things which are clearly a result of them not knowing any better. The lack of real training starts to become clear. But of course he thinks he's above any form of criticism. "I've been doing this for 20 years! You can't tell me what is right and wrong for my class... blah blah blah."
I could keep going on about this, but what it really boils down to is that even the most experienced and qualified teachers don't turn up their noses at being observed, observing, and generally expanding their teaching knowledge. So why do the certificate holders in SE Asia think they're above it? |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Observation including peer observation SHOULD be a positive part of CPD.
Alas I have never found it to be. I have worked in some pretty good places in the UK but also some pretty rubbish places - both there and around the world.
Either it is just a rigmarole and waste of time - or they are looking for an excuse to give the teacher hassle.
Thus I can see both Dave_1 and Expatluke's POVs.
If you really wanted to have a useful observation program my ideal would be peer observation with all documentation kept confidential between the two observers. This allows both to learn from each other, provide rationales for their teaching methods and reflect on it without the pressure of evaluation.
You can have an occasional evaluation observation every 3-6 months too - because a lot of people do get lazy and don't teach up to the standard of their training [self included in this].
Sadly - the management all too often lack the skills as teachers, managers, and even as human beings to do a useful job of observation and feedback. So it tends to be a useless hoop jumping exercise at best - abusive bullying at worst. |
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Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Comparing dubai to vietnam is like comparing apples to oranges. They have different standards as far as what's qualified as "teachers." Also vietnam is more focus on profit, the big $$$$, but not actually educating people. Dubai is more focused on actually educating the students because most jobs there are government funded. The reality is that any jackass can "teach" in vietnam both legally and illegally to rake in more $$$$$$ for the owners of private businesses. At most viet language school's they don't really care how you teach as long as you maintain their student retention and/or bring in more students to their place of businesses. It unfortunate but true. As for improving yourself as a "teacher," of course you should. Any normal human being has the ability to learn from your mistake, reflect, and attempt different approaches, and learn to "teach" better next time around. All "teachers" and students are different. We don't teach robotic lesson where lesson are mass produced and taught like mass production of machinery. What you learn from school is only theories and foundation of what's required to be a teacher. But as students' receptiveness is also different, we adjust adjust our lessons constantly with "common sense" approach because, when we look around the classroom, we know if students are bored or excited. If they look bored, it's time to ask yourself why and try different approaches. That's how you learn to be a better teacher anywhere. Dubai prefers more mature and older teachers because the government wants their kids to actually "learn". They know more experienced and matured teachers can do exactly as I said better than the fresh young 'ens. And hey! You shouldn't be shy about your self confidence. If you think you're handsome, the best "teacher" in the world, or think you can walk on water, so be it. It's far better than being a loser who always look down on themselves. I don't care what anyone says, it's all about big $$$$$$ in vietnam. As they say, "No money? No honey!" |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| Dave_1 wrote: |
They don't share your views on 1 obs per year being horrible. They trust people to do their jobs. I am not sure you do. |
It's not about trust. It's about bettering yourself as a teacher. If you think you're too good to be observed and evaluated, then you're probably a lousy teacher. I'm not saying that's what you are... just if the shoe fits, and all that.
I see a lot of teachers talking about how experienced and knowledgeable about teaching they are. They seem to think they don't have anything else to learn. They complain how they're smarter, better looking, more caring, and generally better people than their bosses. But a cold, hard reality check is that the majority of the "teachers" in Vietnam are not qualified, and have been doing things wrong for years and years. Sure, you might have a certificate, but even a CELTA is only supposed to be an introduction to teaching. It's not teacher training, and it doesn't qualify you in nearly any developed country. If you look into teaching in places like Dubai, most of the teachers there have their MAs as a starting point. The ones with the better jobs have their Ph.Ds and are working on additional ones. In the US you won't get a teaching job without a degree.
So it really boggles the mind when you come to the armpit of the EFL world that is SE Asia, and see all these people with their TESOL certificates who have deluded themselves into thinking they are the beginning and end of all EFL knowledge and experience. I've met "teachers" who have been in Vietnam teaching for 20 years, but when I've observed their classes, they're terrible. They're making numerous mistakes they aren't even aware of. A lot of the mistakes are simple things they could fix if they were observed and debriefed by someone trained to do it. Some of the mistakes are things which are clearly a result of them not knowing any better. The lack of real training starts to become clear. But of course he thinks he's above any form of criticism. "I've been doing this for 20 years! You can't tell me what is right and wrong for my class... blah blah blah."
I could keep going on about this, but what it really boils down to is that even the most experienced and qualified teachers don't turn up their noses at being observed, observing, and generally expanding their teaching knowledge. So why do the certificate holders in SE Asia think they're above it? |
Am done debating with you. I see your comments on anti-teacher sentiment in Indonesia. You hate us. Where are you a DoS/A DoS in VN at moment? Warn us please. You read like a nightmare DoS. You put forth straw man argument rather than accept the facts from someone who knows how the best employers work. VN not an armpit but a place I did well and saved very decent savings. I was lucky. But I wouldn't last 5 minutes with you. Every new teacher coming to Vietnam should fear people of your view. To teachers reading this..bring plenty savings as you'll have expat luke types prying into your classes monthly. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave_1 wrote: |
Am done debating with you. I see your comments on anti-teacher sentiment in Indonesia. You hate us. Where are you a DoS/A DoS in VN at moment? Warn us please. You read like a nightmare DoS. You put forth straw man argument rather than accept the facts from someone who knows how the best employers work. VN not an armpit but a place I did well and saved very decent savings. I was lucky. But I wouldn't last 5 minutes with you. Every new teacher coming to Vietnam should fear people of your view. To teachers reading this..bring plenty savings as you'll have expat luke types prying into your classes monthly. |
I'm definitely not a DoS. I'm just a humble EFL teacher, like you... well, perhaps a good deal more humble than you in the sense that I think I could benefit greatly from having other professionals observe my classes and point out areas where I could improve. Like I said, anyone who's had any form of real teacher training would agree with me on that bit.
I do think that if I was in charge of a school, I would try to set up regular observations for teachers, and offer them half-pay to observe other teacher's classes. Any teachers who had a problem with it would quickly be shown the door. But like I also said earlier, that's kind of an ideal situation. I did work at a school that was set up like that in America for about a year. That school also offered to pay for any teacher who wanted to get their CELTA... |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Okie from Muskogee wrote: |
| Comparing dubai to vietnam is like comparing apples to oranges. They have different standards as far as what's qualified as "teachers." Also vietnam is more focus on profit, the big $$$$, but not actually educating people. Dubai is more focused on actually educating the students because most jobs there are government funded. The reality is that any jackass can "teach" in vietnam both legally and illegally to rake in more $$$$$$ for the owners of private businesses. At most viet language school's they don't really care how you teach as long as you maintain their student retention and/or bring in more students to their place of businesses. It unfortunate but true. As for improving yourself as a "teacher," of course you should. Any normal human being has the ability to learn from your mistake, reflect, and attempt different approaches, and learn to "teach" better next time around. All "teachers" and students are different. We don't teach robotic lesson where lesson are mass produced and taught like mass production of machinery. What you learn from school is only theories and foundation of what's required to be a teacher. But as students' receptiveness is also different, we adjust adjust our lessons constantly with "common sense" approach because, when we look around the classroom, we know if students are bored or excited. If they look bored, it's time to ask yourself why and try different approaches. That's how you learn to be a better teacher anywhere. Dubai prefers more mature and older teachers because the government wants their kids to actually "learn". They know more experienced and matured teachers can do exactly as I said better than the fresh young 'ens. And hey! You shouldn't be shy about your self confidence. If you think you're handsome, the best "teacher" in the world, or think you can walk on water, so be it. It's far better than being a loser who always look down on themselves. I don't care what anyone says, it's all about big $$$$$$ in vietnam. As they say, "No money? No honey!" |
I agree with most of this. But the problem I've found in my own teaching and see in others, is that most people will choose the path of least resistance if given the opportunity. Meaning, if you're just left alone in your classroom, it's very easy to fall into the routine of just doing what is easiest.
Few teachers will sit down after they've taught a lesson and reflect on how well things went or how they could have improved it. Most people will be out the door, headed to dinner or beers with their friends, and the only thought they'll give to their lesson is to complain about their students or bosses. I'd wager that most EFL teachers in Vietnam have never even been told that reflection after a lesson is just as important as the lesson planning itself.
If your students are given surveys every few months with questions like "What percentage of the talking does the teacher do in each lesson?" "How much time do you spend speaking English in an average lesson?" "Do you think the teacher does a good job of correcting your mistakes and helping improve your grammar?" "Are the activities in class interesting?" And if a teacher knows he's going to be observed from time to time, he's probably going to put a lot more effort into each lesson. He's also going to have a much better idea of what constitutes a "good" lesson.
I never mentioned cutting a teacher's pay for having a poor lesson. We all have those from time to time. All I ever said was regular observations with follow-up meetings will help the teacher improve. It seems some teachers such as Dave are adamantly opposed to any criticism or input in their teaching. Yes, 1 observation a year is awful. |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| Dave_1 wrote: |
Am done debating with you. I see your comments on anti-teacher sentiment in Indonesia. You hate us. Where are you a DoS/A DoS in VN at moment? Warn us please. You read like a nightmare DoS. You put forth straw man argument rather than accept the facts from someone who knows how the best employers work. VN not an armpit but a place I did well and saved very decent savings. I was lucky. But I wouldn't last 5 minutes with you. Every new teacher coming to Vietnam should fear people of your view. To teachers reading this..bring plenty savings as you'll have expat luke types prying into your classes monthly. |
I'm definitely not a DoS. I'm just a humble EFL teacher, like you... well, perhaps a good deal more humble than you in the sense that I think I could benefit greatly from having other professionals observe my classes and point out areas where I could improve. Like I said, anyone who's had any form of real teacher training would agree with me on that bit.
I do think that if I was in charge of a school, I would try to set up regular observations for teachers, and offer them half-pay to observe other teacher's classes. Any teachers who had a problem with it would quickly be shown the door. But like I also said earlier, that's kind of an ideal situation. I did work at a school that was set up like that in America for about a year. That school also offered to pay for any teacher who wanted to get their CELTA... |
Expat Luke's straw man argument against me as follows " a good deal more humble than you in the sense that I think I could benefit greatly from having other professionals observe my classes and point out areas where I could improve. "
Reality is I agree with observation in probation and in renewal and peer observation monthly to 3 months apart. You want in their classrooms at will every month, yes?I only agree with student generated (not DoS generated) professional observations until contract renewal time. What is it you so value about frequent observation(bullying?) of teachers when no complaints have been made against teachers and retention/surveys in line with other teachers?
And you are DoS level. You want to be seen as neutral so easy to try pass off as a teacher but you have shown very harsh views of Tefl teachers. You are not neutral. I am a scribe of facts I have seen, the good, the bad, the ugly. No spin. I am not telling you how it should be, but how it was at better/best place in Vietnam where I spent years. |
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Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
| Okie from Muskogee wrote: |
| Comparing dubai to vietnam is like comparing apples to oranges. They have different standards as far as what's qualified as "teachers." Also vietnam is more focus on profit, the big $$$$, but not actually educating people. Dubai is more focused on actually educating the students because most jobs there are government funded. The reality is that any jackass can "teach" in vietnam both legally and illegally to rake in more $$$$$$ for the owners of private businesses. At most viet language school's they don't really care how you teach as long as you maintain their student retention and/or bring in more students to their place of businesses. It unfortunate but true. As for improving yourself as a "teacher," of course you should. Any normal human being has the ability to learn from your mistake, reflect, and attempt different approaches, and learn to "teach" better next time around. All "teachers" and students are different. We don't teach robotic lesson where lesson are mass produced and taught like mass production of machinery. What you learn from school is only theories and foundation of what's required to be a teacher. But as students' receptiveness is also different, we adjust adjust our lessons constantly with "common sense" approach because, when we look around the classroom, we know if students are bored or excited. If they look bored, it's time to ask yourself why and try different approaches. That's how you learn to be a better teacher anywhere. Dubai prefers more mature and older teachers because the government wants their kids to actually "learn". They know more experienced and matured teachers can do exactly as I said better than the fresh young 'ens. And hey! You shouldn't be shy about your self confidence. If you think you're handsome, the best "teacher" in the world, or think you can walk on water, so be it. It's far better than being a loser who always look down on themselves. I don't care what anyone says, it's all about big $$$$$$ in vietnam. As they say, "No money? No honey!" |
I agree with most of this. But the problem I've found in my own teaching and see in others, is that most people will choose the path of least resistance if given the opportunity. Meaning, if you're just left alone in your classroom, it's very easy to fall into the routine of just doing what is easiest.
Few teachers will sit down after they've taught a lesson and reflect on how well things went or how they could have improved it. Most people will be out the door, headed to dinner or beers with their friends, and the only thought they'll give to their lesson is to complain about their students or bosses. I'd wager that most EFL teachers in Vietnam have never even been told that reflection after a lesson is just as important as the lesson planning itself.
If your students are given surveys every few months with questions like "What percentage of the talking does the teacher do in each lesson?" "How much time do you spend speaking English in an average lesson?" "Do you think the teacher does a good job of correcting your mistakes and helping improve your grammar?" "Are the activities in class interesting?" And if a teacher knows he's going to be observed from time to time, he's probably going to put a lot more effort into each lesson. He's also going to have a much better idea of what constitutes a "good" lesson.
I never mentioned cutting a teacher's pay for having a poor lesson. We all have those from time to time. All I ever said was regular observations with follow-up meetings will help the teacher improve. It seems some teachers such as Dave are adamantly opposed to any criticism or input in their teaching. Yes, 1 observation a year is awful. |
You ain't gotta worry about other people's problems. If you don't have the desire and ability to improve your teaching that's their problem. I do realize some people ain't just cut out to be "teachers" even with proper degrees, certification, and 'red' stamp of approval from God. If they don't realize it on their own, the natural elimination process will take place for them because students will complain. Therefore, surveys and classroom observation is crock of you know what. As long as students are happy, learning, and entertained watching us dance across the classroom, what's the big deal? In fact, why don't the 'management' jack up the salary for good teachers? School here are only interested in pocketing big $$$$$$. Beside I like having newbies around because it make me look really good. |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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I am glad Expat Luke has come on..even though he repeatedly makes false claims about my position on observation. He, I believe, supports DoS level soliciting of comments to repackage as complaints, even though no student came forward with a complaint, thereby triggering observations monthly and generally risking your employment. Anyone coming to VN with 2000-3000USD , remember...expat luke and his like are who you will run into at some point. These types of DoS, AdoS or academic managers will wait around school corridors when students come and go to approach your students when you are not there and solicit comments that give grounds to get obs going and tell you what trash you are.
Don't be misled by HR or interviewers....reality is many in management have contempt for those new overseas recruits. You better have money for plan B or you are gambling your future and risk being left broke and out of a job in a foreign country. My advice is DO NOT accept a job in VN from overseas. Come here and size them up. Definitely don't come to VN with less than 5000 and a return ticket or you are asking for a nightmare |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Dave1, your posts read like bad, teenage, horror fan fiction. If you have a problem with people checking on your teaching then you're just a lousy and paranoid teacher. That's it. I work as a teacher at a school that gives the students surveys every two months, and has 1 observation for each course every 4 months.... So with 5 courses that's 15 observations a year.
And I think it's just fine. I've never felt bullied, because I'm confident in my teaching. And I can honestly say the system has made me a much better teacher than I was before in worked here. |
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Dave_1
Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 88
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| Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Dave1, your posts read like bad, teenage, horror fan fiction. If you have a problem with people checking on your teaching then you're just a lousy and paranoid teacher. That's it. I work as a teacher at a school that gives the students surveys every two months, and has 1 observation for each course every 4 months.... So with 5 courses that's 15 observations a year.
And I think it's just fine. I've never felt bullied, because I'm confident in my teaching. And I can honestly say the system has made me a much better teacher than I was before in worked here. |
Had enough of you. You misrepresent what I said on purpose so you can avoid the issue. But I am glad you are on show here so others thinking of coming to VN can see why they need to be worried ...plenty nutters wanting to pry into their classes 5 hrs a month and trash them, force them out of work. Am done here. |
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Okie from Muskogee
Joined: 31 Jan 2014
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| ExpatLuke wrote: |
Dave1, your posts read like bad, teenage, horror fan fiction. If you have a problem with people checking on your teaching then you're just a lousy and paranoid teacher. That's it. I work as a teacher at a school that gives the students surveys every two months, and has 1 observation for each course every 4 months.... So with 5 courses that's 15 observations a year.
And I think it's just fine. I've never felt bullied, because I'm confident in my teaching. And I can honestly say the system has made me a much better teacher than I was before in worked here. |
Geezes H Crispy! 15 obs a year?! That's more than 1 obs/month! LOL
I'd like to know which lousy and paranoid school you work at. Sounds like nightmarish teacher training school. But glad to hear that it forced you into a better teacher. Some of us are already better teachers, but not perfect, but really really good teachers so we don't have to put up with that &^%@. I hope they pay more than 40 bucks an hour.
I been going in and out of vietnam for more than 10 years and wonder why I ain't heard of your outfit. Are you sure you ain't pulling that out your %^&?
I'm sorry for my foul mouth. I also teach my students 'merican idioms and humor with foul language as well. I bet your imaginary school will love to observe my classes because I find vietnamese adult students learn much better with humor and foul language. |
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