Site Search:
 
Get TEFL Certified & Start Your Adventure Today!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

When you're not allowed to speak Japanese in class.
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Japan
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Maitoshi



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 718
Location: 何処でも

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rtm



Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ssjup81 wrote:
Either way, Japan needs to take a page out of Korea or China's book for English teaching methods as those from both tend to have a better grasp on the language compared to Japanese learners.

I don't think it's a matter of English teaching methods, but rather a motivation to learn the language. For a lot of Korean or Chinese people, English proficiency is a big part of being accepted to or graduating from a good university, or getting a good job. That doesn't seem to be the case in Japan.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rxk22



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RM1983 wrote:


The immersion thing is unrealistic cos of the low effort they make I think. They could double or triple ALT immersion classes and still not get the results they want! It takes more than one 50-min class a week to become communicative.

I actually think it is a ridiculous concept in the first place. Even adults living in England need much more than one hour of a class a week. And I think that that is a good comparison because the idea is based on it to some extent, people seem to think we can recreate living abroad or something?

It takes an adult with low ability a good while to start becoming communicative and that is living in England studying a few hours everyday.

Teaching in Korea at a hagwon, those kids were getting 2 hours of immersion (actual immersion) and 2 hours with the Korean teacher a week on top of their publc school English. They were clearly miles ahead of my JHS students in most cases, and they were still looking at doing years of this if they wanted to really get to the point of being able to use it well


This. "Immersion" isn't just 2-3 hours a week. It is 2-3 hours PER DAY.

I have kids 2 times or so per week. They get 1-2 hours of English lessons per week. In no way are they able to comprehend anything but the simplest instructions in English. I feel that we need to approach teaching English, as a foreign language, not as second language. It is unrealistic, and it obviously isn't working.

Why this obsession with English only in classes from Kindergarten to College? It remains a profound mystery
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rxk22



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rtm wrote:

I don't think it's a matter of English teaching methods, but rather a motivation to learn the language. For a lot of Korean or Chinese people, English proficiency is a big part of being accepted to or graduating from a good university, or getting a good job. That doesn't seem to be the case in Japan.


Good point. Though they are finally changing the college entrance exams here. Perhaps we will see a little more "real" English being taught in the near future?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RM1983



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rxk22 wrote:
RM1983 wrote:


The immersion thing is unrealistic cos of the low effort they make I think. They could double or triple ALT immersion classes and still not get the results they want! It takes more than one 50-min class a week to become communicative.

I actually think it is a ridiculous concept in the first place. Even adults living in England need much more than one hour of a class a week. And I think that that is a good comparison because the idea is based on it to some extent, people seem to think we can recreate living abroad or something?

It takes an adult with low ability a good while to start becoming communicative and that is living in England studying a few hours everyday.

Teaching in Korea at a hagwon, those kids were getting 2 hours of immersion (actual immersion) and 2 hours with the Korean teacher a week on top of their publc school English. They were clearly miles ahead of my JHS students in most cases, and they were still looking at doing years of this if they wanted to really get to the point of being able to use it well


This. "Immersion" isn't just 2-3 hours a week. It is 2-3 hours PER DAY.

I have kids 2 times or so per week. They get 1-2 hours of English lessons per week. In no way are they able to comprehend anything but the simplest instructions in English. I feel that we need to approach teaching English, as a foreign language, not as second language. It is unrealistic, and it obviously isn't working.

Why this obsession with English only in classes from Kindergarten to College? It remains a profound mystery


It doesnt seem at all thought through is all. I dont take a particularly hard-stance on much because there are lots of different ways to go about learning a language. It's just that contrary to what I read, most ALTs would really enjoy a more active role in helping out their students and I think that most can work out ways to be beneficial.

It actually staggers me that they want MORE ALTs, the system seems laughably inefficient in most cases. I might be under-informed on it all though and there could be pressure coming in from somewhere. I heard a rumour that soon there will be immersion happening whether the Japanese teachers like it or not. And that some of them might be heading for an warly retirement as they raise the required ability.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RM1983



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rxk22 wrote:
rtm wrote:

I don't think it's a matter of English teaching methods, but rather a motivation to learn the language. For a lot of Korean or Chinese people, English proficiency is a big part of being accepted to or graduating from a good university, or getting a good job. That doesn't seem to be the case in Japan.


Good point. Though they are finally changing the college entrance exams here. Perhaps we will see a little more "real" English being taught in the near future?


Interestingly, it seems Korea is cutting its native teacher program down pretty quickly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe. I see younger teachers hired, mostly female.
Lots of turnover.

One older male teacher is burned out and headed for early retirement next March.
If they don't deal with discipline, they are useless.
I can speak adequate Japanese.
How are these Japanese English teachers better?
They aren't as there is a push for oral skills, and the eikaiwa part for 10th and 11th grade pushes speeches, debate, writing, etc.

I got reprimanded for speaking a little Japanese but try teaching in English only when they are unmotivated and low-level.

My boss doesn't always speak English. Her former boss was better but he retired.

I wonder if these teachers have to take an Eiken test like I heard, with a score of no lower than 2kyu.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shakey



Joined: 29 Aug 2014
Posts: 199

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mitsui wrote:
I got reprimanded for speaking a little Japanese but try teaching in English only when they are unmotivated and low-level.


How were you reprimanded for speaking Japanese in class? I mean, was it just a verbal warning not to do it again, or were you given a written warning?

It seems that you are a high school teacher, so what I am about to write may not surprise you. Many Japanese English teachers are not proficient in English. They fake and bullshit their way through.

As a part-time ALT in Tokyo, I have worked with a number of Japanese English teachers who cannot use is / was or even I / You / S/he / him / her properly. Their level of English is shocking. They are lost. And I have personally witnessed how many of them actually teach English in Japanese. Yes, they speak Japanese while describing and explaining esoteric grammatical rules or the definitions of words, etc. It is truly a bizarre learning environment.

Meanwhile, they usually have me present as a human tape recorder to provide correct sample of language. Then, when not needed, I make my way over to my table at the side and just read the Japan Times.

It's a lie. The whole thing is a sham.

My theory is that the country and its bureaucracy and institutions are not set up to truly allow for the Japanese to learn English. Everything in Japanese culture is arranged and designed in a way that it simply will not work. From the focus on testing, the unmotivated and disengaged students to the way they do their job hunting in the spring when kids graduate college, etc., the Japanese need to make changes that hey are not prepared to make - or at least those who are in power.

Also, and even more importantly, the nationalistic and economically and politically powerful families that run / own Japan, do not want English to take hold here. They are extremely protective of Japanese culture and DO NOT want any outside foreign influences taking hold in Japan. That includes English.

Again, this is all a big sham and a colossal waste of money and time.

In the end, however, I am happy about it. I hope they never change. It gives me a job.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maitoshi



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 718
Location: 何処でも

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't you still have a job if actually teaching English, Shakey?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, it was just a b#$chy whine that the boss said we have to speak only English in class so please support me while she scowled at me.
I just used a little. They don't always listen to me, when I use English.

But the vice-principal said Japanese is OK since sometimes it is needed.
In fact in my demo lesson I had to do it in English and in Japanese.
70% of the students don't do homework, and don't study.

The teachers are not as useless as those you work with.
It is weird that it is OK for Japanese to speak Japanese in class but heaven forbid if a gaijin does even if students are so low level they don't know what is going on.


Last edited by mitsui on Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RM1983



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there might be some relation to not wanting to rescind power too, in a way. Before I ever came here my Japanese student in the UK had told me about how she would get snotty remarks aimed at her when she tried to use English.

Mine at least have the skills to do much more in English but I think maybe they dont wanna stand out by being visibly better than the other teachers. Again, the kids lose out big time.

Insecurity seems to run the whole show. Much like some native speakers cling to the English only at all costs thing, Japanese teachers seem to cling to the myth that Japanese kids wont understand anything without a translation.

If all the ALTs could actually use Japanese to teach then their insecurity would go through the roof.

In their defense though, you have to be careful with how you use L1 in a class IMO. Youd have to be hot stuff to use it regularly. It isnt hard to imagine an ALT getting brave and start trying to teach in Japanese from the Genki book.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, some insist on English with just a little Japanese spoken to an individual who doesn't understand, but when speaking to the whole class they want English, even if students don't get it.
Less than two hours a week is just not enough for them.

When the JETs teach alone I don't know what language they use.
Maybe mostly English.

My uncle is at Tokyo University for a summer class. He speaks English, they understand.
At Aoyama, someone translates for him.

Yet I work at a low-level high school, and I must only use English?
Stupid.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shakey



Joined: 29 Aug 2014
Posts: 199

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mitsui wrote:
No, it was just a b#$chy whine that he boss said we have to speak only English in class so please support me while she scowled at me.
I just used a little. They don't always listen to me, when I use English.

But the vice-principal said Japanese is OK since sometimes it is needed.
In fact in my demo lesson I had to do it in English and in Japanese.
70% of the students don't do homework, and don't study.

The teachers are not as useless as those you work with.
It is weird that it is OK for Japanese to speak Japanese in class but heaven forbid if a gaijin does even if students are so low level they don't know what is going on.


I see. That is typical. There exists a double standard. Maybe they think that we lose our cachet if we are seen speaking Japanese; we lose a part of our authentic 'gaijin-ness'. I dont' speak Japanese in class, at least not often. Mainly because my Japanese is not very good.

However, and you probably know this already, TESOL literature on L1 vs L2 use in class by instructors supports the use of students' native language for giving instructions, at least for lower level learners. It speeds things up if a quick, short explanation can be given to lower level students to set up an activity, etc. My guess is that many Japanese teachers are not aware of this, or very few of them are.

Let's face it, education, much like everything else in Japan - the medical field and business practices, etc. - exists in a vacuum. For example, Japanese English teachers are not even aware of what a CELTA or DELTA are. So when I suggest monitoring students from behind or putting them into a horseshoe shaped arrangement for face-to-face communication activities, they are like, "What is this? Why are you arrange desk like that?" Ha, aha!

Ah well. Whatever.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RM1983



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mitsui wrote:
No, some insist on English with just a little Japanese spoken to an individual who doesn't understand, but when speaking to the whole class they want English, even if students don't get it.
Less than two hours a week is just not enough for them.

When the JETs teach alone I don't know what language they use.
Maybe mostly English.

.


It probably varies between the teachers but as far as I have seen it is mostly Japanese. Every time Ive seen a class it is just translations of the reading passages in the textbook. Actually a few weeks back a colleague cancelled an activity we were gonna do together because he hadnt used English in a few weeks and didnt feel confident in it. I can tell when I go to a new school after a few weeks that the students havent had any English interaction since my last class because you have to really fire that up before theyre used to it.

Being English teachers though, dont you think we overstate the importance of English anyway? From what most seem to agree on theyd need to pretty much rip it upand start over to really improve it. If they wanted to use immersion properly theyd have to triple they amount of ALTs.

Perhaps how they do it isnt all that bad? If a student after high school is motivated then they could use their hogh school education as a pretty good base to go from.

They might be better off doing away with the ALT programme altogether and providing better training for their J teachers.

I think their ideal would be to just learn from Japanese teachers, so why they stick with this waste of time instead of moving towards this I dont know
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I work at a escalator school and at the university they have two years of English.
It is tough. Two semesters of reading/writing and two for oral skills.
The books are either British or American, and are English only.

But the texts used are too easy at high school. Many things are translated in the books. So they are not prepared for what awaits them.
So they are not ready and just have a Japanese teacher for 12th grade.

If the JET is good I can most of the time speak English if she translates when needed.

Another thing is, yes the JET tends to have not have a MA, doesn't go to conferences, doesn't read any research, so what do they know about the field? Not much.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> Japan All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 3 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Teaching Jobs in China
Teaching Jobs in China