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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
Given that scenario, you're expecting numerous variables to all be in perfect alignment, including landing a job in a country with a well-rounded public school system and marrying a national who's in total agreement of your plans (since you state you'd be making all the decisions).
Your children would also be able to read and write whatever the national language is if they attended a private school. But frankly, if your income won't be enough to support your family and send your children to schools that provide them with a bilingual, western/British education, then perhaps you should think twice about getting married and having children until you could afford to do so. |
But why is it an expectation to provide a 'western' education? What's wrong with a Korean education, a Chinese education, a Singapore education, a Thai education etc?
The default attitude among TEFL'ers seems to be 'my kids have to attend a private school'. But really, it should be the domestic government school that is the default option. That's the school almost all of the locals will be sending their kids too. Laughing at the idea of local schools is silly especially when many Asian countries perform better academically than western kids these days. |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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It's silly to laugh at the notion of expat/private schools when you haven't dealt with being a parent in the school system. Simple things like dealing with school notes, sick pickups, teacher meetings, and God forbid, developmental delays/screenings, bullying due to being that "foreign kid", and so on.
There's nothing wrong with local schools in general, correct, but until you have your own kids as the outsider, you can't quite imagine how expat/private schools are especially appealing. I sat through a three hour psychologist screening for my child, having to absorb it in L2. Very, very hard. Now make phone calls. Now put the kid in a class where support doesn't exist in the local language, let alone English. You can't rely on your spouse to do EVERYTHING, assuming they are local, because it causes burnout. I went through it all... and skipped the private English school to come home.
If you are fluent in the local language, this is all significantly easier.  |
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LarssonCrew
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 1308
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:26 am Post subject: |
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If I had a kid right now I would have zero interest in them going into a local school in most ESL destination countries.
Would I want him or her to go to a Saudi Arabian school to be brainwashed about religion? No
Would I want him or her to go to a Chinese school and learn about how great China is and how terrible foreigners[his father!] is? No.
Would I want him to receive racist abuse in Korea or Japanese schools? No. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| LarssonCrew wrote: |
If I had a kid right now I would have zero interest in them going into a local school in most ESL destination countries.
Would I want him or her to go to a Saudi Arabian school to be brainwashed about religion? No
Would I want him or her to go to a Chinese school and learn about how great China is and how terrible foreigners[his father!] is? No.
Would I want him to receive racist abuse in Korea or Japanese schools? No. |
Not sure I'd want him to receive overly politically correct white guilt/feminist/social justice type propaganda in the West either.
There are some EFL destinations that are both diverse and provide a reasonable education, e.g. Hong Kong and Singapore, but yes with you on the others. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
But why is it an expectation to provide a 'western' education? What's wrong with a Korean education, a Chinese education, a Singapore education, a Thai education etc?
The default attitude among TEFL'ers seems to be 'my kids have to attend a private school'. But really, it should be the domestic government school that is the default option. That's the school almost all of the locals will be sending their kids too. Laughing at the idea of local schools is silly especially when many Asian countries perform better academically than western kids these days. |
No one here is laughing at private or state schools. This has nothing to do with one learning situation being superior than the other; its about culture, curriculum, standards, regulations, and academic goals. In fact, if you still plan to pursue an MA in Educational Leadership, check if the program offers a course on comparative educational systems. It was one of the more fascinating courses for my MAT.
Anyway, santi84 gives a first-hand, real-world example of what I meant by "numerous variables" that impact decisions. Reality vs. utopia. |
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danshengou
Joined: 17 Feb 2016
Posts: 434
Location: A bizarre overcrowded hole
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
Given that scenario, you're expecting numerous variables to all be in perfect alignment, including landing a job in a country with a well-rounded public school system and marrying a national who's in total agreement of your plans (since you state you'd be making all the decisions).
Your children would also be able to read and write whatever the national language is if they attended a private school. But frankly, if your income won't be enough to support your family and send your children to schools that provide them with a bilingual, western/British education, then perhaps you should think twice about getting married and having children until you could afford to do so. |
But why is it an expectation to provide a 'western' education? What's wrong with a Korean education, a Chinese education, a Singapore education, a Thai education etc?
The default attitude among TEFL'ers seems to be 'my kids have to attend a private school'. But really, it should be the domestic government school that is the default option. That's the school almost all of the locals will be sending their kids too. Laughing at the idea of local schools is silly especially when many Asian countries perform better academically than western kids these days. |
I'm pretty sure that parents choose the high-end international schools for reasons such as quality and prestige and better chances back in the western world where they will most probably be returning to in a few years. Also, the local public schools are not all good, and often depend on what district you live in. Finally, local schools aren't going to be taught in English (unless you're in an English-speaking country of course), so your kids are going to have a pretty difficult time for example going to a local Chinese-speaking school. So +1 vote for the 'expensive' international schools. Just like in a lot of cases overseas, western 'quality' stuff (food, education, cars) can cost a lot. If you can't afford that option, best to stay home and send your kids to a public school there. Or there might be a cheaper international school alternative such as where other 'lower-salaried' folks send their kids. Even then it won't be free; it will still probably cost your entire education allowance, but at least you won't have to teach summers to pay the difference. |
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MotherF
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| My children go to a local public school, but then, my children are locals. |
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spanglish
Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 742
Location: working on that
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| bograt wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| bograt wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
| No, I'm not moving any goal posts. You're largely thinking of managers outside the teaching centres, which would explain the talk of bands. Like I said - maybe 1 in 100 teaching *managers* might be able to take advantage of schooling for kids. |
It doesn't sound like you've worked for the BC. A teaching centre manager is usually a band 8 job and will consist of a very good expat package including paid housing and kids education. An assistant teaching centre manager to a lesser extent but as far as I know they still offer schooling at that level. There are plenty of other 'managers' below those levels at band 5 and 6. I've had a band 6 job myself in the past at the BC and provided for myself and my wife very comfortably - 3 bed flat, trips abroad and substantial savings. I've also known lots of teachers with non working spouses who seem to do just fine.
OK edit you're largely talking about Europe and North Africa, which are the worst paid regions |
I'm out of touch at this point from having moved on from teaching a few years back, but was in BC circles in several capacities for a few years in Latin America and North Africa and had friends and co-workers moving to and from other centres in other regions.
One insight and agreement that comes out of our discussion is that there is quite a lot of variance in terms of pay and benefits among teaching centres. I'll leave it at that as my original comment in this thread was made half in jest/tongue in cheek. |
Here's a band 7 job that came out last week with school fees provided.
MOD EDIT
You're right in the sense that there's a lot of variety and the people you knew who were assistant centre managers may have been only on a band 6 to reduce costs. They could also have been managers of small centres or satellite centres. |
Every example I gave was managers at main centres in capital cities in 3 continents.
I don't know how many BC teaching centre managers you know or have run across, but I would challenge you to try to think of what percentage of them had children with them enrolled in a local fee-based school. |
Here's the specs for the ATCM job you mentioned in Tunisia, which provides school fees. Whether or not your friend took advantage of that is a different matter.
https://www.britishcouncil.org/new/PageFiles/16651/ATCM%20Tunis.pdf |
Fair enough - you're right, I'm wrong on the officially offered school fee benefit for an ACTM in Tunis at the time of that posting. |
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spanglish
Joined: 21 May 2009
Posts: 742
Location: working on that
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
| spanglish wrote: |
I think parents can decide for themselves what school system 'will do just fine' and in most of the non-rich world - which constitutes at least half the globe - the local school system would be problematic at best. Think classrooms with dangerous conditions, holes in the walls/roof, no toilet paper in the bathrooms, no air conditioning in dangerously hot climates, and in some cases high rates of violence and endemic cheating. Foreign English teachers wouldn't dream of working in most public school systems, so it's a little odd to say they should serve just fine for their children.
I have no issue with the contention that things are tight for everybody in the middle class. That's a point I make repeatedly in this forum - while pay and benefits have gone down for TEFL teachers over the years, they also have for middle class in rich countries. |
If you don't have the salary to fork out for an international school (most TEFL'ers don't) then the local school system will do just fine as that'll be your only option. You can't just decide to fly business class when your budget only supports economy, and neither can you just pick a school that you want your kids to go to without thinking about the costs.
You talk like a lot of schools are warzones. They're not. Yes, in some countries they practice rote learning rather than critical thinking. In some places if your child acts like a brat the cane will come out, rather than western style detention. In some places they'll be a lot more homework than the West. None of these things should be deal breakers and you shouldn't be put off having kids because of a local school system.
Let's not forget in some places the local schools actually do better than schools back home. |
Nearly all public schools in Latin America do resemble war zones, or at the very least have non-working bathrooms and lack other critical facilities I mentioned. Same goes for Africa, South-central Asia, and Southeast Asia (the Gulf I'm not sure of). Point taken on Korean/Japanese schools (though there you have the cultural issues to think about) and perhaps some parts of Mexico/Chile/Uruguay have decent public facilities.
A rule of thumb - if as a teacher you wouldn't dream of working in said school, it is doubtful you would be willing to send your children there. |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| spanglish wrote: |
Nearly all public schools in Latin America do resemble war zones, or at the very least have non-working bathrooms and lack other critical facilities I mentioned. Same goes for Africa, South-central Asia, and Southeast Asia (the Gulf I'm not sure of). Point taken on Korean/Japanese schools (though there you have the cultural issues to think about) and perhaps some parts of Mexico/Chile/Uruguay have decent public facilities.
A rule of thumb - if as a teacher you wouldn't dream of working in said school, it is doubtful you would be willing to send your children there. |
I've never been to South America, but your assertion most public schools in South East Asia represent warzones just isn't correct.
Class sizes will be larger than a western school, there's usually corporal punishment and a different 'style' of learning (rote learning and memory rather than critical thinking) but for sure they're not dangerous.
I wouldn't 'dream' of working at any public UK school, but I wouldn't have any issue sending my kids to one. So I don't see why such a high standard needs to be applied abroad. You should of course have a look round the school and talk to some of the teachers there prior to enrolment, just like you'd do back home. But not having kids just because you can't afford a 'western' education for them seems an extreme step. |
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MotherF
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W
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| Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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I have been to South America, but it was 20 years ago so I won't comment.
However it's not true about Mexico. There's a huge range in public schools in Mexico, from appalling to excellent. I've visited many, and work with public school teachers, so I am well aware of the realities. But if a foreign resident is committed to improving education in the country that hosts them, one of the best ways to do that is by participating as a user of the system, and organizing parents to improve education. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| joe30 wrote: |
| You talk like a lot of schools are warzones. They're not. Yes, in some countries they practice rote learning rather than critical thinking. In some places if your child acts like a brat the cane will come out, rather than western style detention. In some places they'll be a lot more homework than the West. None of these things should be deal breakers and you shouldn't be put off having kids because of a local school system. |
| and wrote: |
| Class sizes will be larger than a western school, there's usually corporal punishment and a different 'style' of learning (rote learning and memory rather than critical thinking) but for sure they're not dangerous. |
Most parents have a vested interest in their child's education. In fact, being in an ideal school district is one of the top must-haves for many families choosing where to live in the US, Canada, UK... So it's disappointing that, as a teacher, you consider a learning environment that entails caning and teacher-centered instruction as suitable for your son or daughter. That said, you're not a parent (nor even married), but I predict your perception of parental values and responsibility will change if/when you actually become a dad.
| then joe30 wrote: |
| I wouldn't 'dream' of working at any public UK school, but I wouldn't have any issue sending my kids to one. So I don't see why such a high standard needs to be applied abroad. You should of course have a look round the school and talk to some of the teachers there prior to enrolment, just like you'd do back home. But not having kids just because you can't afford a 'western' education for them seems an extreme step. |
Private schools aren't all hoity-toity. However, in contrast to public schools abroad, they generally offer your child a western-curriculum education that also includes learning the local language and culture. (That was my experience attending a private school as a child while living in Taiwan for a year.) In your case, having a bicultural/bilingual learning experience within a western educational environment would 1) expose the child to both parents' cultures; and 2) better prepare him/her for the rigor of academic studies in a UK or US university, if that's a path the child wants to take.
If you absolutely have to put your children in a mediocre government school abroad because your salary is low, then hopefully you'll supplement their learning with regular home schooling to address deficiencies in their public school education. And ditto MotherF's points about parental involvement rather than passively expecting the schools to be solely accountable for your child(ren)'s education. |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
Most parents have a vested interest in their child's education. In fact, being in an ideal school district is one of the top must-haves for many families choosing where to live in the US, Canada, UK... So it's disappointing that, as a teacher, you consider a learning environment that entails caning and teacher-centered instruction as suitable for your son or daughter. That said, you're not a parent (nor even married), but I predict your perception of parental values and responsibility will change if/when you actually become a dad. |
I think we need to make the distinction between things that are needs and things that are only desirable. I don't think anyone is claiming that a local government school in most ESL destinations is better than an international school. For sure, the international school will be superior in 99% of cases.
I'm saying that the inability to afford the best school doesn't mean you shouldn't have kids, and it doesn't mean you should feel guilty about not being able to send them to the best school. I'm sure I'd have got better grades if I'd gone to Eton (a posh independent school in the UK) but like most of the rest of the country I attended a free government school. My family, like most out there couldn't afford private school fees, but it just meant I was in the same boat as 95% of kids. Is that so bad? I don't think so.
I'm not saying I particularly like some aspects of education in other countries - I'm just saying it wouldn't stop me having kids if I was settled, met the right girl, it was the right time etc. Just like how not being able to afford a first class air ticket isn't going to stop me going on holiday, even if I'd 'prefer' not to sit in economy.
Agreed that a parent should also take an active role in their childs learning and development, but I'd say that's true regardless of whether they attend a government school or go to a top international place. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I'm not saying I particularly like some aspects of education in other countries - I'm just saying it wouldn't stop me having kids if I was settled, met the right girl, it was the right time etc. Just like how not being able to afford a first class air ticket isn't going to stop me going on holiday, even if I'd 'prefer' not to sit in economy.
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Most TEFL teachers who have kids and can't afford international schools, myself included, tend to organize their job around their kids not the other way round. Meaning they don't think ' I'd like to settle in Korea' then 'now where will I send my kid when he gets to school age.' More like 'I'd like my kid to go to school in that country so I'll start working towards that goal in advance. |
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danshengou
Joined: 17 Feb 2016
Posts: 434
Location: A bizarre overcrowded hole
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
| Quote: |
I'm not saying I particularly like some aspects of education in other countries - I'm just saying it wouldn't stop me having kids if I was settled, met the right girl, it was the right time etc. Just like how not being able to afford a first class air ticket isn't going to stop me going on holiday, even if I'd 'prefer' not to sit in economy.
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Well, I'm not sure that's the best analogy since a bad seat on a flight is only for a few hours. |
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