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International Schools
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Kalkstein



Joined: 25 Aug 2016
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote:

Agreed, real international schools are extremely strict and aware of these things. The genuine international schools require teaching certifications, no matter where they are located & the subject. One that I know of in my tier 3/4 middle of nowhere city recently refused a MSc in Physics from a top 50 university because he didn't have a teaching license and they've been looking for years to hire a physics teacher.


Again, I assume that this is a K-12 school. You won't find manymasters level college and university teachers who are licensed. Licensure isn't required to teach post-secondary schools in the U.S..

Is licensure required to teach post-secondary level in the U.K?


See I think the problem here is a lot of people don't generally refer to colleges/universities as schools, I mean it's technically correct I just don't hear it used very often. When I hear school my first thought is pre higher education, otherwise people I know (not Americans to be fair) generally state university or college. So when I'm talking about schools I don't mean tertiary education. If I wanted to be general I'd state international institutes or something similar. You definitely don't need a license to teach at a university in the UK but generally a master's isn't enough either, most people teaching at universities are PhD students or they already have their PhD - assistant professors.

The opportunities and pay for international universities, such as Nottingham and Liverpool in China are less than licensed teachers at an equivalent level of international school (K-12) and to get the better tenured positions you need publications too on top of your doctorate. Candidates are also often chosen from their faculty in the UK, so they don't advertise interviews often for people already within China.

If you want to have any meaningful chance of teaching at an international university in China you want a PhD, at least at the decent universities (which offer the international salaries). Most people with just a master's degree generally end up teaching at standard Chinese public universities, this is the lions share of people I know. I suppose my point is that there are far more positions for K-12 teachers and they usually pay more too.

Non Sequitur wrote:
Not really fake but pandering to arrivist parents.
I taught an international program one semester at a Qingdao vocational that focused on entry to Canadian and Australian tertiaries. The students paid more and as far as I could gather did not have the Gao Kao results to get regular entry into even a provincial-level vocational. I would put that at the lowest level of 'international program'.
Interesting point about IB age-level. This tallies with the O and A levels I think. Also in my country what used to be called School Certificate (sat after 3 years high school) and the University Entrance sat or accredited after 4 years high school.



I suppose everyone has a different definition, I always refer to the schools that are sino/foreign owned. The ones that I am familiar with give the students the equivalent qualifications of the country to which the sino school is related to.. So in my case that would be the Chinese students earn A-level equivalents. Any IB program in which the students can barely achieve gaokao scores to attend local universities (say 200-300) is just a con and they don't pay "international" salaries either. So yeah whilst it's not fake, I'm sure we can at least agree it's bullshit.
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papuadn



Joined: 19 Sep 2016
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kalkstein wrote:
Any IB program in which the students can barely achieve gaokao scores to attend local universities (say 200-300) is just a con and they don't pay "international" salaries either. So yeah whilst it's not fake, I'm sure we can at least agree it's bullshit.
Nah, it's just markets, as loathe I am to use the term. Some portion of China's rising and monied classes will send their children to study abroad despite any measured proficiency via agents that negotiate terms exceeding non-resident tuition.

Such demand outpaces supply and, as more western institutions realize what they are missing, agents accord fees (in part) by IELTS/TOEFL scores. Placing a student with an IELTS of, say, 5.5 costs less than a 5.0., and so on.

But I do not mean to contradict what you have largely explained.

As with "school", I think what confounds this discussion are referents: No accredited IB program is a confidence game and they largely hire instructors licensed/registered in their home country and offer a commensurate salary. IB is a specific designation, but it is misused by posters unfamiliar with it.

And, as you have clarified, sino/foreign owned "sister" schools provide a path. Parallel to your reference of A levels (British), Advanced Placement tests are administered in China for US schools. I have seen advertisements on this site and others (soliciting AP/Advanced Placement subject teachers) that DO offer a higher than average salary. I recall a few posts along the lines of, "How can I become AP 'certified'?" Rolling Eyes

A teacher I met (M.A.Ed./AP Endorsement) was greatly dismayed by their program's coordination and a gradual comprehension their classes were a cosmetic factor in their students' acceptance abroad.

In 1990 when I began teaching ESL in the United States, all of my students were PhDs. Years later, more were Master's. Over the last ten years, a "market" of undergraduate education has opened.

Already, many Chinese families are sending their children over for their senior high school years in hopes of gaining an advantage in college acceptance.
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getbehindthemule



Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 712
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[/quote]

Does it matter? In the primary and secondary grades, it is very important that the teacher know not only the what of the subject but also the how (how to teach) because are taught not only the subject matter but also how to learn.

I've never asked a Chinese teacher this, but are Chinese professors required to possess some sort of licensure?

In the States, private schools have different requirements and the teachers are often exempt from being state licensed, though they may be required to pass tests that determine their proficiency in a subject.

As I understand it, the International Baccalaureate degree is offered to students aged 16 to 19. That sounds like high school/secondary school to me to me. (level 3 on the RQF).[/quote]


There is also an IB PYP (Primary Years Programme) and an IB MYP (Middle Years Programme). The school that I work runs both of these.
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22Yossarian



Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A true international school, such as Western Academy Beijing only accepts students with foreign passports, and most of the students are diplomats and business executives' kids, and their job pays the tuition as a part of the total package.

You most be certified in your home country to work in those schools. Even more, they usually won't look at your CV if you have no work experience in your home country. Even if you have years of expeirence in (bilingual schools), explained below. They know that the quality of bilingual schools is usually subpar, so short of very good networking and teaching a high need area, it is basically impossible to jump from low quality bilingual schools to international schools. The familiy's of students at international schools demand too much to hire someone without a strong track record.

Bilingual schools, are both public and private schools for Chinese to learn a foreign curriculum. Some public schools have international divisions, that deliver IB and/or American curriculums. Many, but not all of these schools, receive accreditation from either IB or American accreditation agencies, it is not too difficult to gain accreditation as it is a money making oppurtunity for the foreign accredator.

Last year I worked at a first year bilingual k-12 school, offering American curriculum. About half of the teachers were not certified, most had no experience in their home country coming to China. Many had been bouncing around China for years, a few who lacked certification were hired out of language academies, because the school was desperate to fill staffing holes (the stricter visa process made things more difficult).

Working there was difficult. The expectations were really high, but those expectations were not backed up with course materials nor leadership that provided a behavioral management program that allowed provided consequences for basic things like being late to class nor incentatives for positive behavior. It was the most I have ever been paid, more than I though I could make, and included full benifits, a western school calender with full paid time off, and it still wasn't worth it.

People without certification can find jobs in bilingual schools, but beware that the expectations will be high, but you may have the same quality of management that you had at your language academy.
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getbehindthemule



Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 712
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

22Yossarian wrote:
A true international school, such as Western Academy Beijing only accepts students with foreign passports, and most of the students are diplomats and business executives' kids, and their job pays the tuition as a part of the total package.

You most be certified in your home country to work in those schools. Even more, they usually won't look at your CV if you have no work experience in your home country. Even if you have years of expeirence in (bilingual schools), explained below. They know that the quality of bilingual schools is usually subpar, so short of very good networking and teaching a high need area, it is basically impossible to jump from low quality bilingual schools to international schools. The familiy's of students at international schools demand too much to hire someone without a strong track record.

Bilingual schools, are both public and private schools for Chinese to learn a foreign curriculum. Some public schools have international divisions, that deliver IB and/or American curriculums. Many, but not all of these schools, receive accreditation from either IB or American accreditation agencies, it is not too difficult to gain accreditation as it is a money making oppurtunity for the foreign accredator.

Last year I worked at a first year bilingual k-12 school, offering American curriculum. About half of the teachers were not certified, most had no experience in their home country coming to China. Many had been bouncing around China for years, a few who lacked certification were hired out of language academies, because the school was desperate to fill staffing holes (the stricter visa process made things more difficult).

Working there was difficult. The expectations were really high, but those expectations were not backed up with course materials nor leadership that provided a behavioral management program that allowed provided consequences for basic things like being late to class nor incentatives for positive behavior. It was the most I have ever been paid, more than I though I could make, and included full benifits, a western school calender with full paid time off, and it still wasn't worth it.

People without certification can find jobs in bilingual schools, but beware that the expectations will be high, but you may have the same quality of management that you had at your language academy.



Good solid post. But why shouldn't expectations be high?
I work at a bilingual public school and teach an American Science curriculum. Maybe I just got very lucky but I've got no complaints. I know of many teachers in SH that worked in the international departments of schools that you refer to and they had/have a much tougher gig than me (pressure from parents, management, politics, etc.). It probably boils down to the high fees that the parents have to cough up to these schools every semester! That's why I prefer my public school gig!
You stated in your post that despite the good salary & benefits, 'it still wasn't worth it.
Could you please elaborate on this?
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22Yossarian



Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was a little bit clumsy in my wording, I should have said unrealistically high expectations given the environment. And the high expectations are in the wrong places. Very long working days, and expecting teachers to stay after the required 8-5 day, and holding it against teachers who have the efficiency to finish their work in the 9 hours they are required to be at school.

Not providing teachers with the tools they need to be successful. There was no behavioral management policy. I was fine with the high school students (and by fine, they usually turned up to class late and were not prepared with their materials), but it was a disaster in the middle school classes, as kids that age need rules.

Further, we were handed students who were far from proficient in English, and again there was no real plan in place to work as a team to move these kids forward. No high quality ESL program, no benchmarks for them to try and achieve.

Nobody in upper management actually wanted to step up and do anything. At one point, the foreign academic principal basically said we were punting the year and would focus on next year.

I have no problem being expected to teach quality lessons and be a well known presence on campus. But, we were consistently handed lemons and no sugar, and would be punished for not always making lemonade.

Further, rather than having discussions with the Chinese leadership about what is happening they would just hold lectures and tell us to do a better job. I had one discussion, that lasted less than a minute, with a Chinese principal. They never really cared to find a team oriented solution to problems, instead they tended to stay in their offices, have meetings with other leaders, and never actually talk to teachers about what is happening.

It was a super stressful work environment. Moral was really low, we had occasional all staff meetings where the Chinese top principal would basically tell us we are all terrible and have to work harder.
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getbehindthemule



Joined: 15 Oct 2015
Posts: 712
Location: Shanghai

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha, get you now. Sounds horrible!
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