Job Discussion Forums

[ghost]

Some people do well in Turkey, and that is good for them.

Those who are suffering, should review their options and try something else, because they will gain little in a `banging your head against the wall` situation. This applies, especially, to some teachers teaching in the Private k-12`s, which traditionally have offered problems to many teachers with reference to classroom management.

Ghost saw foreign teachers at a Private College on the South Coast suffering a lot for the year, because they did not want to call it quits. Many of these teachers were on medications because of the stress faced each day with the spoilt brats in the Elementary Section of the College. Ghost was lucky, in a sense, that he was fired, because the situation was really untenable.

[OzBurn]

Ghost, I have never noticed that children under ten pick up new language "like sponges," or even like damp photographic paper. The research I am familiar with shows that in classrooms, children learn a new language more slowly than adults. They are not able to study as long and find it more difficult to generalize. It is a myth that children learn a foreign language naturally and easily.

It is true that if pre-pubertal children are placed in an immersion environment, most of them will pick up the new language from their peers, with or without instruction, after a number of months or a number of years. (I doubt that this necessarily has to do with some greater readiness to play or take chances, since this describes some children, but not others. It probably has more to do with neuronal growth patterns and limitations.) This is the only situation in which it is relatively easy for a normal person to learn a new language (which isn't to say it is actually easy -- many children find such experiences frightening and stressful). In any event, this facility of children has little or nothing to do with their ability to learn in the classroom. The view that learning is easy and natural for them reflects wishful thinking on the part of adults.

Last year, I inherited classrooms full of children many of whom had been exposed to native-speaker English teachers for years, but who generally spoke very little correct English (and in many cases, not even much broken English). This is anecdotal, but I believe the pattern is confirmed by research. These kids needed drill, not more funsy games such as they had been exposed to for years.

I will, however, repeat that anyone who has taken a foreign language for only two months and can perform functional tasks in it is doing quite well. Criticism of Ghost's attainments seems to have more to do with malice than with reasonable disagreement.

[ghost]

The evidence from Montreal, Quebec, Canada - is that children and even young people of school age pick up a foreign language quite easily when they are placed in an immersion situation.

Otherwise - OZBurn, how can you explain foreign youngsters from places as diverse as Afghanistan, Pakistan, China, Romania, Kosovo, Sri Lanka, etc...being able to speak and understand French within one year of arriving in Montreal?

That is the reality of the situation, and it has to be in a full immersion situation in which the new arrivals are constantly exposed to the language.

Adults can learn difficult languages when motivated. Ghost met several NGO`s and teachers in Cambodia this past winter who spoke very decent level Khmer language (the national tongue of Cambodia). Some of the NGO`s had only been in the country for about one year, but they had mostly been posted to remote parts of the country in small communities where no one spoke English.

Going back to the original post, the children have an advantage in learning new languages, because they are generally less hesitant to try the new language in the company of new playmates who speak the target language.

As OZ points out, children will not learn a new language if they are not motivated - and that is the situation in many language schools where children are dumped by their parents. But when they are motivated - especially by extrinsic rewards - such as communicating on a soccer field with new playmates - functional fluency will be gained fairly quickly.

[OzBurn]

Yes, I said in my post above that there is an exception when it comes to immersion situations. However, it isn't necessarily true even there. I have seen children who are English native-speakers exposed to a constant stream of Hungarian, yet learn virtually nothing. Partly this has to do with the child, and partly it has to do with the difficulty of Hungarian, which is much, much harder than, say, Spanish.

Adults who are exposed to immersion situations over the long term generally learn a functional pidgin, not good usage, unless they are dedicated students of grammar and also very good at languages. This is a very solid finding. (Of course, there are linguistically talented people who are exceptions, but that is mostly beside the point.) This has little or nothing to do with the willingness to play or experiment. I have seen adults and teenagers who are much readier risk-takers than some children, but they won't learn a language to native level unless they are linguistically brilliant and work very, very hard, and maybe not even then; whereas even a rather dim child can usually attain native fluency without a huge effort, if he is exposed early enough in a total-immersion environment. This shows that the key difference is not psychological, but biological, and must have to do with neuronal development. Something happens to our brains at puberty that makes it much harder to "pick up" a foreign language.

Unfortunately, the ability of young children to learn a foreign language in a total-immersion environment, even without significant instruction, has been taken by many, probably most adults to mean that all a child needs to learn a foreign language is a bunch of games and fun activities in a classroom. I believe that there is no evidence for this view. As an example, today I taught students at a well-known school in HCMC, Vietnam. These students have had at least a year of English, but they didn't know simple terms such as "touch" or "raise your hand," and they were unable to pronounce critical words clearly and correctly. They were, I should add, pleasant, cooperative children who listened diligently (given their age) and worked pretty hard (again, given their age and the fact that it was Saturday morning). But it was all quite difficult for them, especially the pronunciation (which, so contemporary folk belief states, an especially easy area for childrent to master).

There are basic facts of human memory and attention that are relevant for every classroom, whether one is teaching children or adults. The failure of most students to learn a foreign language is quite predictable, given the near-total unavailability of textbooks that reflect a scientifically based method of teaching that is designed to ensure that the student learns and retains the key points of grammar, pronunciation, usage, and vocabulary.

[ghost]

OzBurn - so you are in Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam). How are you coping with the horrendous motorbike traffic to get to and from work?

Ghost was in HCMC in March 2004, looking at schools, but the motorbike traffic and general permanent cacophony put him off. Ghost stayed in District One, in one of the Mini Hotels, just opposite the Big Park, where they have a fun fair at one end. Each evening was spent in said Park giving free English Conversation lessons to University students. Another interesting spectacle each evening was to watch the amazing skills of the guys who played a sport similar to `footbag` kicking an object around. Some of the participants were in their late sixties and early seventies and could still play.

A good Restaurant to recommend in District One (Ho Chi Minh City) was the ``Bodhee Tree`` - great vegetarian pankakes with many different fillings and good fruit shakes. For a small price - around $2 for a full meal.

The schools in HCMC seemed pretty good, and the pay was definetely the best of the region (Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos) with salaries in the $15 per hour range quite good bearing in mind the low cost of living.

Yes - the Vietnamese students in general seemed quite shy and well behaved. If you get the chance try to go up to Hoi An, which is a dynamic little town with a decent beach, cheap hotels, restaurants. You can rent push bikes there and get around on your own.

Has OzBurn been learning any Vietnamese - and what method is used? Fortunately it is easier to learn compared with Thai or Khmer, thanks to the romanized writing system. But it certainly would not be classified as an easy language to learn, although many former Vietnam vets picked up decent level Vietnamese by just mingling with the natives and especially Viet. girlfriends.

[OzBurn]

Thanks for the recommendations. How much did you pay for your hotel? I've got mine down to six dollars a night, now, with air conditioning. I don't think it gets much lower than that.

The job I have now pays 15 dollars an hour, but I think that is toward the upper end of the pay scale around here. I have heard 17 or higher, but I'm not sure if that is net (after taxes) or gross (before taxes). Mine is net, so that's pretty good given that you can get a quite decent lunch of pho (noodle soup) for about 60 cents. I talked to one young man who lacked experience; he was making 11 dollars an hour at one of his schools. Another man I talked to, who had quite a lot of experience and a CELTA, was making around 13 an hour. So there is a lot of variety. I had to audition for my job, and they liked the class a lot, so that accounts for the pay difference, I suppose. (Another school that offered me a job at twelve didn't even watch my first class, which I suppose says quite a bit about how much they care.)

The students, so far, are a huge relief after Hungarian students, although I have to admit that the Hungarian kids were generally more willing to try speaking English during pairwork and groupwork. So far the Vietnamese students have been willing to talk, but it is harder to get them started, and they speak in murmurs that are barely audible to me and perhaps barely audible to each other.

I don't mind the motorbike traffic here as far as the crowds, since you never get an American-style urban traffic jam. What bothers me is the noise, although I'm getting used to it. The first three days seemed unbearable, coming from Hoi An and Mui Ne, which are both quiet towns on the water. Saigon just never stops.

I am taking Vietnamese lessons, but find it hard going. In non-tonal languages, I am a good enough mimic, and the language is clear enough and forgiving enough, that I can usually communicate from the first day. With Vietnamese, much of what I say is incomprehensible as soon as I depart from combinations I have drilled and practiced. My teacher estimates a month or more just to "learn" the tone system and sounds, which seems right to me.

Vietnamese is difficult not just because of the tones, but because of its various vowels (long and short) and diphthongs. It also has several difficult consonants, such as ng and tr and an unaspirated t, and accentual variations (North, South, and Central) that sometimes make it difficult for Vietnamese to communicate with each other. Another problem is that the Vietnamese do not describe the consonant sounds accurately -- e.g., if you ask a Vietnamese teacher to tell you the sound made by the letter "m," they will tell you something that sounds like /m@/ (that is, m followed by a schwa). The concept of isolating a consonant sound is new to them, because they do not learn it that way in school (or at least that is what I have found so far).

I still think about going to Turkey, but I'm going to give this a try for a while. I have to admit I've been quite put off by the stories I've heard about how awful the young Turks are in class. Strange, because I thought almost everyone I met there (not in school) was quite nice.

[ghost]

Ghost only paid $6 per night in March 2004 - and that was as a short term tourist. If you get a letter in Vietnamese from your school stating that you are a teacher there for a fair length of time, you should be able to get your mini hotel cost for about $3-$4 a day, if you pay for a month ahead of time, with the backing of your employer as a guarantor, to be on the safe side. Some of the mini hotels have t.v. and video, and that is good for listening to the news in Vietnamese, although at this stage you will understand next to nothing.

It will take your ear a few weeks to get used to the tonal differences, but once you are used to them, you will improve a lot, especially when you reach the stage of actually being able to produce the tonal differences yourself.

Your salary of $15 per hour in Vietnam is excellent, and if you continue eating those tasty 60 cent meals, you should save quite a lot of money.

Be careful of Vietnamese women and girls - they will smile at you a lot, but in most cases all they want is your cash. One has first hand experience of this, not only in HCMN but also in Dalat, Nha Trang, and Hanoi. The Vietnamese are the most money hungry people of South East Asia, and they are not always ethical about how they make it, especially when it comes to contact with foreigners.

How are you finding the traffic in Saigon? The endless chaos and traffic is both frightening and fascinating, because, despite the apparent anarchy, most people seem to get from A to B in Saigon, and still get home in one piece....however the law of averages says that eventually you will have an accident. Is your school in District One or in one of the other districts?

Getting a job in Vietnam is relatively easy for foreigners, and the pay and conditions are far better than Thailand, Cambodia or Laos. However - Vietnamese are not as ``laid back`` as the Khmers (Cambodia) or Laos. But the Vietnamese are without doubt the most professional in their outlook to education in South East Asia, and the results speak for themselves, with Vietnam going upwards the way South Korea and Taiwan did some 20 years ago. Within 10 years, one thinks, Vietnam will be gaining ground on other Asian tigers, and will no longer be such a cheap deal.

Yes - Turkish people are charming when you go there on vacation. But when you live there as a resident and teach in one of the private k-12 schools you soon find out that the face they (the Turks) present is one face, and the second inside face is not so pretty....and rather shallow and stupid in fact...Go to an Internet cafe in Turkey, and you will see this side of Turkey....young men in the 18-30 age group spending all day there playing stupid war games, smoking, shouting, and generally behaving like uncivilized savages...

[dmb]

Ghost, how many turks did you actually get to know? The Turk you describe above doesn't sound like any of friends. I'm not saying that the turk you describe doesn't exist but they are not all the same. Anyone who describes a complete race as shallow and stupid is....... I'll let other posters finish the sentence

[ghost]

DMB - do you actually go into Internet Cafes in Turkey? - One suspects not, because otherwise you would see the kind of behaviour one is talking about - you might call it `disrespectful` (at best) or simply `outrageous`

Ghost has travelled throughout most of the Globe, and Internet Cafes are the worst in Turkey - because of the general selfish and childish behaviour of the majority of the patrons who use those places (Internet Cafes) as childish play areas (war games etc..) rather than places for information. One would expect noise levels to be reasonable in Internet Cafes, as they are in most places in the world, but that is unfortunately not the case in Turkey, where young men in the 15-30 age group lack discipline and courtesy toward others. If you ask them to stop hollering and shouting they will just laugh at you and resume their antics.

You should travel to other countries, and then you will quickly recognize that there is a problem with Turkish youth, with regard to general discipline and civilized behaviour. Or perhaps you have been in Turkey for too long, and have become acclimated to the general chaos and anarchy.

[yaramaz]

I've been to quite a few internet cafes in Turkey-- though admittedly never to the apparently intolerable ones you frequented in Antalya or Eskisehir--- and I've never come across this behavior. Sorry. The guys there are normally quite polite and go out of their way to be nice-- free tea, etc. Possibly because I am a woman, and thus, as ghost will likely deduce, because I am a fahise. That always helps.

Ghost, why do you keep arguing with people who have had a great time and great friendships with Turks for 2, 5, 10 years, when you had an abnormally rough 6 months (I admit you had far more bad turns of luck than most)? You will always put forth the All Turks Are Barbarians argument, and we will reply indignantly that this is generalisation and mostly untrue in our own lives. You will never convince us, we will never convince you. Let it rest.

Hey, dmb, you gotta get out of Turkey more! Guess all that time spent in the desert wasn't enough.

[yaramaz]

Oh, and ghost, I've been to internet cafes all over north america, southern and west africa, most of western and eastern europe, as well as Turkey, and, well, they're all pretty much the same. I think the Turkish boys play their games there because unlike we zengin yabancilar, they don't have Playstation or their own computers at home, therefore they come to the cafes to play. I see nothing wrong with that.

I spent 2 years in a k-12 and no, it wasn't easy, but it sure got easier after I learned the ropes, adjusted, and settled in. I liked the kids and they liked me. I still get emails from several of them. It's pretty sweet.

They were just as naughty and ADHD as the Mexican and Korean kids I taught back in Canada-- in fact the Mexican kids were far worse, running out of the classroom, breaking things, etc. Their accompanying teacher was an annoying snob who dismissed everything she came across in Canada. However, again, they did not represent all Mexicans to me-- just a few dozen silly rich kids and their cranky maladjusted teacher from an affluent suburb of Mexico City. You need to make the differentiation too-- some noisy kids in a k-12 or some noisy boys in an internet cafe do NOT mean that a culture and its people are devoid of redeeming factors.

I'll be quiet now. I'm getting a headache from this.

[scot47]

"has to do with the difficulty of Hungarian, which is much, much harder than, say, Spanish."

I am not sure that we can say that some languages are OBJECTIVELY more difficult. Sure Spanish is easier if you are learning it as a user of another Romance or Indo-European language, but Hungarian might be easier for those coming from a Finno-Ugric linguistic background.

It reminds me of the joke about the guy who comes back from China. "You know these Chinese are really very clever. You know how difficult Chinese is ? Well in China even the young kids speak it !"

Comments from those who have some insight ?

[ghost]

Of course it all depends what your background is.

Speaking some Chinese is not that difficult, but learning the writing system and characters is very laborious and a long affair. Millions of Chinese are not able to read very well either, but they are part of the uneducated masses that many of us do not see in North America.

Chinese people have difficulty learning English as well, but a Chinese should have less difficulty learning English than vice versa, because English speaking people have to get used to the tonal differences with just one word having different meanings depending on the tone you use with that word.

Yes - learning some languages are easier for some people. Why do Arab speakers in general end up mastering French or English with relative ease? Not because they are smarter than us, but possibly because their language (Arabic) makes greater use of different areas of pronunciation including deep throat pronunciations, which we Westerners have great difficulty with, and do not use. They (arab speakers) are more polyvalient in the way they use that language, and for that reason, there is good `transfer` to other languages.

In Montreal, and Quebec, people of the Maghreb countries (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia) are thought of as speaking a `better standard` of French than native francophone Quebecers! The Lebanese also speak good French, but their standards are not considered as high as their Maghreb counterparts. The Syrians and Jordanians usually go toward English rather than French, and the English they speak is pretty good, although heavily accented.

The adults who come from countries like Pakistan, Sri Lanka, India and Iran seem to have difficulty in learning French in Montreal, and not because French is difficult, but because there is confusion and interference with English. The children of those recent immigrants, though, have no trouble learning both French and English, and using their own languages in their homes.

When Ghost went to Sri Lanka he noticed that many of the Tamils spoke Singhala (the `National` language) but very few Singhala people spoke Tamil. Why? Most Singhalese people hate Tamils, so of course they (the Singhalese) had no motivation to learn Tamil language.

Another thing is motivation and exposure to languages. Why do Northern Europeans master second and third languages easier than Southern Europeans? They are motivated to learn English in Scandinavia and Holland, for example, and the Nordic Languages are similar in structure to English. In Southern Europe (Italy, Spain, Portugal) the people are less motivated (in general) to learn English. It is a cultural thing.

Intelligence is more or less evenly distributed across populations. But culture and environment play significant roles in determining success in foreign language learning.

[OzBurn]

Since there are relatively few speakers of Finno-Ugric languages on this web site, I naturally wrote for the audience here, which is overwhelmingly composed of native English speakers rather than speakers of Finnish, Mordvin, Komi-Permyak, etc. However, there are a number of difficulties in learning Hungarian that deserve note. To start with, at least 17 cases, vowel harmony, a rigid system of pronunciation, and many exceptions (it is not a terribly regular language, compared to, say, Turkish). Hungarian uses vowel length as a differentiating feature, and that is usually difficult for native speakers of Indo-European languages. Also, Hungarians are not used to foreign accents, so unless your pronunciation is spot on, they tend not to understand you.

In my mere ten days in Turkey, I visited Net cafes but never saw the behavior Ghost refers to. People in general seemed quite nice, although I didn't like the smoke very much. The video-gaming boys are a feature of Budapest Net cafes, as well, although they didn't bother me much. They're just acting like boys, and you can always patronize a different place if you don't like the ones that are heavy on video games.

[dmb]

All quiet on the internet front. I'm in a cafe at the moment(The one on Taksim Square) No one is playing games. There are only 7 people here however. Another stereotype from Ghost?