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myesl
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 307
Location: Luckily not in China.
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 Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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All information correct as of early 2003
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
Every now and then I hear people claim illegal work is better than legal. I have challenged those people to prove it. They never have.
Working without an ARC is possible, yes, but not prefereable; certainly not adviseable over the long term. |
Well, my best jobs were illegal ones. As already mentioned, I've had an ARC as both a student and a teacher. I did also suggest that if people want to teach, they should do it legally. I was a legitimate student (now fluent), so for me it was a way to make my own schedule, though the height of the recession didn't provide much of a schedule  .
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
These are the only advantages I've seen:
Ability to come and go from jobs without change in visa status
no taxes |
Small in number but large in importance.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
The disadvantages are somewhat lengthier:
Costs for language courses you may or may not attend
Inability to obtain the best jobs (no matter what some may tell you, the best employers want to hire you legally; that means degree and ARC eligibility) |
See above.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Visa trips (cost and time lost). Some people call these "vacations." I prefer to take my vacations voluntarily, thank you. |
See my earlier posts on this thread. You can stay in Taiwan for at least a couple of years as a student with an ARC and health insurace without leaving the island once.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| You can't legally own anything (not even a cell number anymore) |
Nonsense. See above and my earlier posts.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| The slight tax advantage you gain also provides the justification for government crackdown on illegal workers |
If you're illegal, who cares? If you're legal, who cares?
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Knowledge that your next visa extension may be denied for any reason |
Nonsense. See my earlier posts.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| It gets harder and harder to explain those extensions |
Nonsense. See my earlier posts.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| no health insurance |
Nonsense. See my earlier posts.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| As has already been mentioned, the risk of being ripped off without any way of recovering your loss. Why? Schools who hire illegals are often unlicensed and illegal themselves. |
I think we all know no shortage of teachers working legally who've been ripped off hugely, no?
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| The majoriy of people I've known who've worked using the language school-visitor-visa-extension-method have been doing so because they lack the necessary qualifications for a resident visa. I repeat what I've already said: If an ARC is not really an option for you, reconsider your plans to come here. |
And I repeat, that the complete opposite is true. But as I've said earlier, an ARC is the best option generally speaking; it's just not magic and it's not for every situation.
| Wood wrote: |
| Why not Shida? |
Their teachers SUCK. They don't prepare at all for class. They make fun of foreigners and other countries in class. They say things like "Chinese are the most polite people in thhe world." or "English speakers don't have good memories." They run out of class as soon as the bell rings (try that with your English class!) That's just an introduction to why not shida
My friend got malaria in Sweden . . . . |
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Waldorf Salad
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| wombat wrote: |
| Rice Paddy Daddy wrote: |
| Speaking from personal experience aslo, I've worked illegally and haven't been ripped off yet. So have many people I've known in the Taiwan EFL scene. |
That�s good for you, and I am sure that you are not the only one not to have been ripped off while working illegally. Unfortunately for most their experiences are not as positive, and unfortunately for us we rarely here about these experiences on boards like this. I mean are people who were ripped off while working illegally really going to come to a board like this and admit it! Of course not. My personal experience is that people who are working illegally are at a much bigger disadvantage to the rest of us. Although they may not get ripped off, they almost always encounter problems such as the disappearing job, unrealistic employer expectations etc.
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How do you know that 'for most their experiences are not as positive'? Can you provide evidence for that? I've known so many people working illegally throughout the years that I find it hard to believe that the majority of them had negative experiences.
| wood wrote: |
| Bart wrote: |
Bart wrote:
I don't have any figures, I just look around me and see that there are a lot of people working illegally. I guess there must be thousands, but maybe I'm wrong. One thing is for sure: there are many people teaching illegally in Taiwan. |
It's very possible that you are wrong. Just looking around has never been solid ground for making a clear, accurate evalution. You usually have to dig a little deeper. There are many people teaching illegally in Taiwan, and many of them are under the impression that they are teaching legally. For the record, however, I'd guess that there are thousands (though not many) of people teaching English here illegally. There are really no benefits from doing so and most people would be better off accepting legal employment. Yean, there are many people teaching here illegally. So what? |
'Most people are better off accepting legal employment.' Yeah, probably. What I'm saying is that some people are not in the position to choose because they can't work legally for whatever reason. So, these people have two options: 1. stay home 2. come here and work illegally. Listening to some people on this forum I get the impression the first option is the only reasonable one, because if you choose the second one the gates of hell lie waiting for you. I have worked illegally for two years and never had any serious problems, except that one time when I had police in my classroom asking me for my ARC. I had to go to the police station, got a NT$3000 fine, and then I was told to go on. They wouldn't come back.
I know dozens of people who worked illegally for years and never regretted it. What's the point of advising people not to come here if they can't work legally? I still believe that the decision I made almost six years ago to leave my country and come here is the best one I ever made. Maybe other people will have different experiences when coming to Taiwan. Let them find out for themselves. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Dear "Myesl:" Posting "nonsense, see my earlier post" does not constitute a reasoned argument or a response. BTW I did see your earlier posts. They lack responses to any of my points made earlier and do not provide concrete information.
I disagree with you concerning the tax advantage and ability to leave jobs quickly advantage for illegal work. The taxes here are silly low, 6%. They are so low, evading them doesn't represent a major advantage. Some of us here are stable and settled. We don't necessarily need the ability to leave jobs on short notice. If we need to change jobs, there is a proceedure for ARC transfer that enables us to leave a job without affecting our visa status. With that "advantage" of being able to leave jobs quickly also comes job instability, something that will cost you over time. For the measly amount of taxes we pay, we also get benefits. The biggest one being the National health insurance coverage. Other advantages to ARC are the ability to own things and enter into contracts. People getting extensions to their 60 day visitor visas cannot do this.
This brings me to another point. We perhaps are discussing two different classes of students. One is the serious, fulltime enrolled university Madarin program student, the other being the underqualified teacher who pays for "language courses" for the purposes of visa extensions. This type of student rarely, if ever, attends classes and isn't required to do so. The course is a scam. I'm not sure if you're in Taiwan currently, but to my knowledge only the former type of student can obtain an ARC.
Also, don't abuse the word fluent. How long were you here? Most foreigners are not fluent in Mandarin, even those who are here many years. You may be good, but fluent? You understand every idiom; every slang expression? Really? I doubt it very much. I work pretty hard on my language skills myself. I'm conversant (I don't lay claim to fluency) and can read reasonably well. In my experience here I've never met a fluent foreigner. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Bart wrote: |
| How do you know that 'for most their experiences are not as positive'? Can you provide evidence for that? I've known so many people working illegally throughout the years that I find it hard to believe that the majority of them had negative experiences. |
The evidence is all around you, on forums just like this. Look at the people who post about being ripped off, lied to, or cheated in some way. I am talking about legitimate complaints and not just those foreigners that find Taiwan not to their liking and then find issue with every little detail of their job. Almost all of these people are working illegally, whether they know it or not. Short term work, work hours under 14 per week, no contract, no ARC, kindy work, are all synonymous with being illegal. As I have stated before, I am sure that some people work illegally and have a great time doing so. It is not these people that we are talking about. It is the 'what if' situation whereby working illegally leaves you very vulnerable. If you are fully aware of this and are willing to accept that you may be forced to accept unfair treatment and situations, then go for it and work illegally. If you want the security of knowing that in the very least you will actually get paid for the work that you do, then working legally is the only way to go. The choice is up to the individual, and as such they need to accept the consequences of whatever choice they make.
I am still unclear as to why the suggestion has been made that the system does not protect legal foreigners. Did you have a negative experience that you base these claims upon, or did you just pull it out of the air?
People who are unable to get legal work teaching English would be ill advised to consider coming here and working illegally. They should instead either find a job that they can legally do here in Taiwan, maybe teaching or translating etc. in their native language, or study to attain the qualifications necessary to be considered for legal employment here. |
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myesl
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 307
Location: Luckily not in China.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Dear "Myesl:" Posting "nonsense, see my earlier post" does not constitute a reasoned argument or a response. BTW I did see your earlier posts. They lack responses to any of my points made earlier and do not provide concrete information. |
On page 1, I explain step by step how one can come to Taiwan, enroll in a uni language program, renew your visa twice, and get an ARC and health insurance all without EVER leaving Taiwan. That's why I said what I did. Please go back and read.
Concrete information? __I did it myself__. Is that concrete enough? Yes, I had a phone with my own number, again, because I had an ARC as a student. Of course, as I pointed out each of the times on this thread I've had to repeat this information for people who refuse to read my earlier posts -- NB I will not bother with this subject again -- things could have changed. But I don't think they will as I was told that they were new regulations just a couple of years ago when I did all this.
| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Also, don't abuse the word fluent. How long were you here? Most foreigners are not fluent in Mandarin, even those who are here many years. You may be good, but fluent? You understand every idiom; every slang expression? Really? I doubt it very much. I work pretty hard on my language skills myself. I'm conversant (I don't lay claim to fluency) and can read reasonably well. In my experience here I've never met a fluent foreigner. |
I realize that the word fluent is generally misunderstood and so becomes similar to words such as feminist, racist, liberal, conservative, and the like where everyone ends up with their own personal definition.
However, the word does have a standard meaning. It does NOT mean native speaker; it does NOT mean bilingual. It means self-sufficient. In my case, I can pick up a newspaper and read it. I can turn on the TV and understand what people are saying. Does that mean there aren't any words I don't know? Of course not. But I CAN understand. I use a dictionary when reading English (my native language), even though I am an avid reader. Also, in English conversation someone may use a word I am not familiar with. I can and have many times had two hour+ wide ranging conversations with Taiwanese people entirely in Chinese the first time I meet them and have no problem whatsoever (I like to talk to people).
There is no accepted definition of fluency whereby one must know "every idiom", "every slang expression". I DON'T know lots of them in English, and I'm a native speaker. I have friends and acquaintances who are professional translators who do both simultaneous interpretation and written translation and there are LOTS of English words, expressions, idioms, slang terms, etc. that they don't know. I do mean LOTS. In fact, for that matter they don't always know everything about their own language -- as I've said about me and my own. On occasion I've had to explain things to very well-educated Taiwanese about Chinese. Why? Because it was some particular area of interest of mine that they might not know. For example, one friend commented to me that the simplified character 笔 made more sense than the traditional 筆 since the former has 毛 in it. Turns out she (who went to the best girls high school in Taiwan, and the number two uni for her BA and MA) was unaware that 聿 means brush. Heck, it's a radical even. Does that mean she's not fluent in her own language? Come to think of it that same woman didn't know what 塔 was in English. Hardly an obscure character. Can I talk about fixing a car in Chinese? No. But I can't say a whole lot about fixing a car in English either.
I've known two other Taiwanese whose English was so good that upon first meeting them their native English speaking colleagues thought they too were native speakers . In fact, those two women didn't grow up in an English speaking country or have English speaking parents. One went to the US for 4 years, the other to Canada for barely two years -- both as adults. They were just language learning mutants, I guess. BUT I could fill many books with all the slang, idioms, and cultural inside jokes and the like that these two extraordinarily bilingual babes didn't know (oh yeah, they were babes . . . )
I have a Taiwanese friend in the US who has been here 20+ years, at least 15 of those working full time in an English speaking office, including frequent phone and email correspondence with people outside her office. To hear her speak English sounds completely nutso. Her grammar sounds like she is reading a fortune cookie; her pronunciation somewhat better. But she IS very fluent. She can talk to anyone about anything. She may encounter terms with which she is unfamiliar or not say things perfectly, but she is self-sufficient and hence can ask what it means or look in some reference book. And she can understand the answer. That's what fluent means. I don't mean reading line by line with a dictionary of course!
I don't know "every idiom" or "every slang expression", but again, I can pick up the newspaper or turn on the TV and understand. If there is something I don't know and can't figure out by context (same thing I do all the time in my own language), I can look it up or ask a friend and understand their answer. Fluent does not mean perfect. It means self-sufficient. Self-sufficient doesn't mean just ordering soup and saying hello to the same people we see everyday.
Oh, yes, the macho question: "How long were you in Taiwan?" I came to Taiwan a false beginner having studied a first year uni book some years earlier. I stayed for 1 and 1/2 years, went back to the US for a further 1 and 1/2 years, studying every day. Returned to Taiwan for a year during which I not only attended class two hours a day, 5 days a week, but I studied for a few to several hours everyday (7 days a week) besides. I studied on the bus, the subway, waiting for both, standing in line for something, all the time. I have now been in the US for a year and a half, reading Chinese everyday, though I have gotten little oral/aural practice due to the fact that I am curently living in a rural community, but I know from experience that that aspect rebounds very qucikly once I'm back (or go to China). If that's not manly enough for you, I don't care
I've known foreigners in Taiwan who didn't learn anything after a dozen years. I knew a guy who became fluent after 6 months (honestly). Most foreigners who've made Taiwan their home learn slowly (which is a GREAT way to learn) and usually speak to the same people about the same things, so how long one is there is not a very good indicator of anything. |
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Waldorf Salad
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| wombat wrote: |
| Bart wrote: |
| How do you know that 'for most their experiences are not as positive'? Can you provide evidence for that? I've known so many people working illegally throughout the years that I find it hard to believe that the majority of them had negative experiences. |
The evidence is all around you, on forums just like this. Look at the people who post about being ripped off, lied to, or cheated in some way. I am talking about legitimate complaints and not just those foreigners that find Taiwan not to their liking and then find issue with every little detail of their job. |
The evidence is all around me, on forums like this... Well, I've been looking around now for a while, checking all postings that could possibly have something to do with complaints from people working illegally, but I haven't found one. I scrolled all the way down to Sat May 15. I haven't been looking very carefully and it's possible that I've missed one, but this place isn't exactly overflowing with postings from people warning for all the horrors that come from working illegally. If this is your evidence, I'm not very impressed... Oh btw, I did find a posting 'How can I avoid paying a $20,000NT fine for my contract?'
| Quote: |
| The choice is up to the individual, and as such they need to accept the consequences of whatever choice they make. |
Right. And a realistic idea about the possible consequences would be helpful.
| Quote: |
| I am still unclear as to why the suggestion has been made that the system does not protect legal foreigners. |
Not me, not me...
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| People who are unable to get legal work teaching English would be ill advised to consider coming here and working illegally. |
No, they wouldn't. The worst thing that could happen would be losing some money and even that is very unlikely.
| Quote: |
| They should instead either find a job that they can legally do here in Taiwan, maybe teaching or translating etc. in their native language, or study to attain the qualifications necessary to be considered for legal employment here. |
They should do what they think is good for them and certainly not listen to nonsense like "teaching illegally is terribly dangerous and will probably lead to all kinds of disasters." |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bart wrote: |
| The evidence is all around me, on forums like this... Well, I've been looking around now for a while, checking all postings that could possibly have something to do with complaints from people working illegally, but I haven't found one. |
Well you are obviously not looking very hard. Here let me help you. Here is a link to the Job Information Journal on this very site:
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?Taiwan
Now, you are not looking for postings about 'I was working illegally and I got ripped off'. The posts from people working illegally and who had bad experiences include those that were working without contracts, those working in preschools, those working for less than 14 hours a week, those working without ARC's. There are plenty of them there, you just need to read between the lines.
Now, on the same list you would be hard pressed to find a single legitimate complaint from a single person who was working legally and got ripped off. Most of the complaints from people working legally are very minor things that coupled with other pressures were too much for the individual to handle. This is part and parcel of living in a foreign country and has little to do with being treated unfairly.
What is clear is that there is not a single case of someone working legally being ripped off and then finding that there was no support network available. Some have complained about certain aspects of legal work, but never bothered to pursue the matter through the relevant channels of FREE mediation.
| Bart wrote: |
| And a realistic idea about the possible consequences would be helpful. |
What exactly have I stated that is unrealistic?
As I have said all along, anyone can get ripped off or find themselve in an uncomfortable situation, but only those working legally can receive assistance and support. Those working illegally are on their own which, considering that they are paying no taxes in the country that they are choosing to live in, is fair in my book. If you don't respect the law then you can't expect the law to protect you!
| Bart wrote: |
| The worst thing that could happen would be losing some money and even that is very unlikely. |
According to the legislation, the consequences of working illegally are far more severe, but I am not suggesting that many white collar workers would be punished to such an extent. Therefore the worst that could happen is far worse than just loosing a few bucks. What you can be sure of though is that if you are caught working illegally without an ARC that you will be fined, required to pay an estimated tax bill, and then deported. You will lose your right to a visa free period, and may have trouble securing any type of visa to Taiwan for a period of time in the future. I don't know about you but the thought of being kicked out of the country at any moment should I be unlucky would be a real stress. You would basically need to leave everything behind be that a girlfriend, friends, scooter, household stuff, rental deposit etc. It is just not worth it.
If you can work legally then do so. There is absolutely no reasonable advantage to working illegally anymore. If you can't work here legally then don't come until you can.
| Bart wrote: |
| They should do what they think is good for them and certainly not listen to nonsense like "teaching illegally is terribly dangerous and will probably lead to all kinds of disasters." |
I have never suggested that this is the case. In my view, working illegally is an unneccessary evil and the consequences are more uprooting and inconvenient than dangerous. |
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Waldorf Salad
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 56
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| wombat wrote: |
| Bart wrote: |
| The evidence is all around me, on forums like this... Well, I've been looking around now for a while, checking all postings that could possibly have something to do with complaints from people working illegally, but I haven't found one. |
Well you are obviously not looking very hard. Here let me help you. Here is a link to the Job Information Journal on this very site:
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?Taiwan |
I once again checked everything until one year ago and I've found only one posting ('big big warning this time') that says something in general about people who thought they had a legitimate job being deported. Still not very convincing. Please no more links. This is taking too much of my time. There are clearly not many stories of people telling us about the evil of working illegally.
| Quote: |
| Bart wrote: |
| And a realistic idea about the possible consequences would be helpful. |
What exactly have I stated that is unrealistic? |
I have to correct myself here. What I mean to say is that it's unrealistic to think that working illegally will very likely get you into trouble.
| Quote: |
| What you can be sure of though is that if you are caught working illegally without an ARC that you will be fined, required to pay an estimated tax bill, and then deported. |
No, you can't be sure of this. I got caught and only had to pay a small fine. I'm still here.
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| You will lose your right to a visa free period, and may have trouble securing any type of visa to Taiwan for a period of time in the future. I don't know about you but the thought of being kicked out of the country at any moment should I be unlucky would be a real stress. You would basically need to leave everything behind be that a girlfriend, friends, scooter, household stuff, rental deposit etc. It is just not worth it. |
Yes, I remember a real stress when I had to go to the police station, but it would certainly not have been the end of the world if I had been kicked out. Most people who come here are young people who want to make some money. Few people plan to stay here for a long time. If I had been deported I would have been on a plane to Korea the next day to do the same thing there. If you're determined to stay here forever you should think twice about working illegally, but the reality is that few people do. Most people working here have nothing to lose.
| Quote: |
| If you can work legally then do so. There is absolutely no reasonable advantage to working illegally anymore. If you can't work here legally then don't come until you can. |
Why don't you let people decide for themselves? I know plenty of people working illegally here and having a great time.
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| Bart wrote: |
| They should do what they think is good for them and certainly not listen to nonsense like "teaching illegally is terribly dangerous and will probably lead to all kinds of disasters." |
I have never suggested that this is the case. In my view, working illegally is an unneccessary evil and the consequences are more uprooting and inconvenient than dangerous. |
Inconvenient... Yes, that's the right word. If you come here working illegally, be prepared for some inconvenience if you get caught. But the chances of getting caught are very small. |
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