Job Discussion Forums

[Egas]

Ajarn Miguk

Come on now! Is this a serious question? I assumed it was a rhetorical one. What are you suggesting? That we should assume that people we meet are carriers even when there is no evidence that they are? If you want to take this angle you might as well ask yourself "Is that guy an AIDS carrier?", "Is my child's teacher a sexual offender?" "Is my Chinese friend a spy for the Party?". You must live in a lot of fear.

[Egas]

hubei_canuk

My point was that the decison to close schools was not logically consistent with any data that I am aware of. Sure, everyone loves their children, and no one wants to see them harmed. But the evidence, at least as far as I'm aware, is that children do not contract SARS at anywhere near the rate of the adult population, and they certainly are not dying from it. Now, unless my math is really bad, there are a hell of a lot more adults than children in China (one child policy - two parents, one child). Therefore it would be far more logical to STOP WORK, not school. Why target the least affected segment of society? Surely adult workplaces would be the place where this diseaese is being transmitted most readily. Offices, construction sites, mines etc. But of course that would cost the community a lot of cash. Thus as I see it the decision to close down schools is window dressing by the government - an action to make them look like they are doing something constructive when the community is panicking.

Hubei_canuk, you said you would provide facts, but your argument is based on speculation in that you do not provide the key piece of data to back it up - namely the infection rate for children. Without this data, your argument is premised on an assumption.

Having aid that, considering the state of panic at hand, many parents are reluctant to send their kids to school. No doubt most parents feel safer with their kids at home. That would be a legitimate reason to close schools.

But it should be noted that such as decision would not based on the data about SARS, nor any aspect of the actual virus itself. It would be based on human behavior, the human reaction to SARS. A lot of people seem to be having trouble distinguishing between SARS and the human component - the mass fear, the government actions(including their lies and their panic), the social alterations (closing shops, bars and schools;), changed behaviors... etc etc. For me the people are the most facinating and notable aspect of this whole thing, not the virus.

[smarts]

damned if you do and damned if you dont......

given that there has been a lot in the western media about how the Chinese government tried to cover up SARS

now, when they do try to come up with some sort of plan ( in a state where not all facts are know about SARS), then their plan to close schools as a temporay measure should be appluaded at this time.

Closing schools may help reduce people movement and thus help prevent quarantee the spread of SARS. afterall havent they also done that in Singapore and Hong Kong.

Instead, seems like some people want to whinge and complain not matter what the Chinese try to do in response to SARS.

by the way...what isthe student profile at IBS....i would guess it is not as the average middle school in China...and so the risk of those kids being exposed to SARS might be somehwat different from the little xiao xiao's in middle school in Changsha No 45 middle school.

[Egas]

Smarts,

Yes, ISB is not typical - no Chinese (govt. regulations) - a lot of Koreans, and the rest divided amongst Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Taiwanese... I'm not sure if that makes anyone less likely to get SARS here. I note when I go down town that it is the ex-pats who are still in the bars, not wearing face-masks, and seeming less worried by the whole thing. I went out on Staurday. My girlfriend, I and some friends did some bar hoping (a SARS pub crawl?) and most of the bars were at about 10-30% of usual capacity. The only bar that where business was booming was the notorious Maggies bar, basically a brothel where they have a dance floor thrown in to make it look legit. The place was packed, all ex-pats. I guess if you are willing to stick your #$^%$ in a Mongolian prostitute, then SARS is just a minor road-bump.

What we are seeing at ISB is an exodous of students, particularly Koreans who seem to be being told to go home. This has excellerated since yesterday's government announcement about schools closing. Before that only about 20 had left, out of a student body of about 18 000.

[hubei_canuk]

...

[Egas]

Just to clarify,

I was with my girlfriend when I was at Maggies. But I guess that is what they all say...

As for an all-nighter with the Mongolians, I can't see much logic in waiting till SARS is over. I think I'd rather get SARS than AIDS. But maybe you could get both at the same time. I'm not sure how much you'd have to pay for the privilege though.

[Ajarn Miguk]

Not a rhetorical question, at all, Egas. You made the statement that you, "did not meet anyone with SARS." I asked you how you were certain that was the case? Between those who see SARS everywhere and others, like you, who refuse to acknowledge its possible presence anywhere, is probably something closer to the truth.

You are absolutely convinced, from your writings, this is nothing more than a media induced frenzy. Thus, you know you "didn't meet anyone with SARS." What if you're wrong, Egas?

Just because some of us are willing to acknowledge the existence and spread of SARS does not mean we are living in fear. It just means we are in closer touch with reality than believing SARS is something we cannot encounter when we walk down the street.

Like I said, not a rhetorical question.

[wOZfromOZ]

Once again
I've got to go the e-gas line here .... - What a load!!!!

You know
- I was able to see a fellow get mauled at the front gate of our uni this afternoon. Today is my day off and I'd just come back from bying some of that lovely museli at the local "Le Gou".

This guy wanted to see his parents and the PSB 'men wei' gave this poor sod a right going over! I felt so angry and felt like going over and laying into this PSB with the nearest baseball bat.

- BECAUSE HIS BEHAVIOUR WAS A WINDOW ON THE MENTALITY OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT AND THE REACTION TO SARS ......

A dfisgraceful, politically motivated, shameless, abhorent, bully-like, over-reaction to a problem that was internally created and should be
OPENLY DISCUSSED but China still DOES NOT GET THE MESSAGE hey!!!

NOW - These Boards are monitored...... Things have improved from 10 years ago. BUT...WHY CANT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT GET THE MESSAGE?

The present REACTION TO SARS IS A JOKE! WE PRACTICALLY ALL THINK THIS SO

WHEN WILL THEY REALLY CHANGE?

wOZfromOZ

[kimo]

If anyone is interested about my corner of the city. It has been a lovely day today, bright and sunny with a dark sky for an hour or so threatening rain. The streets were virtually empty by Beijing standards, but a great majority of people are now wearing masks. This is much more than the 40 percent estimate I had for yesterday. Many itinerant workers were heading for Beijing North Station. They said they don't want to take any chances. The buses were running, but the newly masked fare takers had an easy day. Drivers of most other vehicles, however, took advantage of the lighter traffic to drive a little (really a lot) faster. Popped into the Chinese branch of an American company and the staff was quite concerned. They will work from home for the next week. My local grocery store had empty shelves inside and stacks of fresh deliveries piled high outside. Waiting to be taken inside among the pile was a heap of large bags of flour. The rats inside will eat well tonight. One could wonder what microbes their feces harbors. Well, that might be chapter two.

News from the internet told me that the People's Hospital evacuated all patients (about 1,000 beds, but not necessarily the number of patients) to other locations so the place could receive a thorough decontamination. Someone might be scared.

[Egas]

Ajarn Miguk

I take your point and I actually agree with you about the need for concern, and like writerman am certainly grateful that things are being done. Perhaps I haven't made myself quite clear on my angle - the reaction should be in line with the nature of the problem. I don't think that is what's happenning here, as I've stated many times here.

There are 22 confirmed SARS cases amonget 1.7 million students in Beijing. There are another 128 suspected, including 53 uni students. There have been no deaths. These figures were from yesterday. You judge what you think should have been done about these figures.

[hubei_canuk]

"There are 22 confirmed SARS cases amonget 1.7 million students in Beijing. There are another 128 suspected, including 53 uni students. There have been no deaths. These figures were from yesterday. You judge what you think should have been done about these figures."
-------
Those figures are from the commie government.
The same government that shot the protesters of the first and second Tiananmen square rebellion and then burned the bodies to hide the evidence.
The same government that allows provincial governments such power that women are sold into sex slavery and sex slave brides within 100 cliks of Beijing. And allows organs sliced and sold from political prisoners.
...
And allows provincial governments to just shoot whoever they don't like.. political rivals, business rivals, Mom and Pop disharmony, plague carriers.
..
Thew same government that took its lessons form Goebbles and Stalin and improved their propaganda machine for over 50 years.
..
So you mean THOSE government statistics.
I am soooooooo relieved!!!

[wOZfromOZ]

Bit over the top Canak. The real world matie hey!!

If you dont like the place go back to Canada or are you on your 'one man mission' to 'save the masses' LOL ?

wOZfromOZ

[kimo]

Today in Beijing, Wednesday the 7th, the streets were starting to fill up with more people. Not near the normal crowds but far more than have been out lately. Saw a gang of high school kids, legs tied together, arm in arm, playing racing games. A guy on a bus picking his nose. Groups of people off on little trips. Girls chatting at street corners. More shop keepers going maskless. All over the place as I walked the 90 minutes to my wife's mother's house people were about.

Some might say this is good. Especially the shop keepers. And I am willing to admit that it does have its upside. Probably less stir crazy patients for one. But on the downside, I cannot help believe that there is something inherently wrong about the masses coming together again at this time.

Is this epidemic finished? Has it even peaked? From what I understand, no. My District, specifically an area right near my neighborhood, is the worst hit place in China. It does not make sense for people to freely go about and assume they are immune from something they can't see - something with an incubation of 7-10 days (some researchers are saying maybe even longer)- and something that can make them terribly sick or even kill them.

I do not advocate fear. I don't even advocate true isolation for the healthy. But continued caution and common sense are still useful personal strategies at this time I believe. - People here, I observed before SARS, usually just take a lackadaisical attitude toward others. That's my space I'll take it, they seem to think. Don't mind if I cough all over you. Sorry, but I won't say sorry while I reach over you to pay because you're blocking my way. --- Old habits die not easily. If they come back too soon, the epidemic might just rear an uglier hand.

Hope I'm wrong! But, I'll bet more people are out tomorrow.

[Egas]

Kimo,

Yes, lot's more folks out today. I'll gues we'll have to wait and see what happens in a week or so, to see if the figures suddenly shoot up. Mathematically, it should happen. But my bet is it won't. Why? Just a gut feeling that ther is more to disease than mechanistic science would have us believe. Personally, I'm happy to see the crowds out. We can't hide away forever.

[once again]

From the latest reports in Hk. it seems that kids who get SARS display much milder symptoms because there imune symptoms are less developed. The latest theory is that SARS makes the imune system overect and attack the body. Actually I find this more worrying. A disease such as Ebola will kill rapidly and show recognisable symptoms. A kid with mild symptoms could be happily infecting many others who then go on to infect lots of adults they come into contact with. The fact that they show only mild symptoms is not a good point for stopping the disease spreading..it is the opposite.