Job Discussion Forums

[extoere]

Benno, you're filled with sweeping generalizations that you'd be hard pressed to support. But let me cite just one reason why I do not view Ali as such a "great man." One autumn day in the late 1960s ('68 or '69), Ali addressed a Market Street crowd in San Francisco with a range of his usual "I'm the Greatest" and "White racism" rants. In the exchange with some of the students and others in the crowd below, he began talking about the undesirability of "race mixing." "Black men marrying white women," he said, "produce these little mud-colored, mixed up kids you see running around the streets ...."

Benno, I was there. I heard his words. My brown-skinned Hawaiian wife heard them. Our three young sons heard them. It left no inordinately negative impression on us. We simply walked away. But I've never forgotten his words. Nor will I ever. Ali was one of the great fighters. As Howard Cossell rightfully pointed out when his crown was lifted, "If you don't believe he's the champion, step into the ring with him." I think Cossell was right about that. But Ali was never the champion of human rights he's been portrayed by so many of those in the press whose lives are lived in vicarious mode. He's led an extremely self-indulgent life, nurturing his celebrity and being protected both by his cortier of PR flacks and his "church" and, above all, by sports scribes and Great White Liberals who love the cult of Pops Heroes and Media Celebrity. Nothing wrong with leading an indulgent lifestyle. Just don't confuse that with "heroism" and "fighting" for human causes. He hasn't. He doesn't. But like so many who have caught the focus of media attention, he's reinforced the notion known to every hack agent in the Brill Building, to wit, that given enough spot lights, enough trumpeting, enough headlines, enough press agentry, and above all, enough willing believers in an audience, you can make a Star ---- or a Hero --- out of a warm clump of dog doo.

Regarding your confusion about my political opinions versus his: I, too, was strongly opposed to the Vietnam war; outraged, in fact. Regarding your question, "do you not like black men who are big and bold," let me say quite unequivocally, I much prefer lithe young Chinese ladies with strong limbs and velvety membranes. On the other hand, if you prefer big, bold black men ... hey, whatever works for you!

cheers,
ex

[China Dim Drone]

Cassius Clay as he was called when I lived in the States was just a normal black guy with a big head and an even bigger mouth. He was, as stated by the above poster, also a rampant and blatant racist.

So he was certainly a mixed up person, but was he really even that good a boxer? Well, let us not forget that even Henry Cooper put him on the deck.

[joe greene]

Jim Thorpe

[extoere]

Jim Thorpe, virtually forgotten by recent generations, was a genuine icon of World Class. An All-Time, All-World athlete!

Great choice!

cheers,
ex

[benno]

D hi extoere
hi , i dont want to have a row or anything, we just got different opinions!
i know that his views on interracial marriage was not the best (hell I am in one myself!), but I dont think he really meant that
pressure from the nation of islam and all that
and to be fair, why exactly did he have to love the white guy anyway, considering a lot of the sh it black people put up with back then

[Gordon]

Why don't you guys start your own Ali thread.

[ContemporaryDog]

My personal favourites:

Johnny Wilkinson (won England its biggest title since 1966 at any team sport, virtually single handedly)
Lennox lewis (unified the heavyweight titles for Britain for the first time in 100 years, and brought dignity and wisdom to a sport full of inflated egos, idiots, chancers, and numbskulls)
Paulo Di Canio (the greatest player my team (west ham) has had in recent years. Scored some amazing goals)
Dennis Bergkamp (I'm not an arsenal fan, but he has scored some of the best goals in both club and international football in the last 8 years or so, especially his winner against argentina in 1998)

All time:

Maradonna. Better than pele in that he had a far poorer team behind him.
Sugar Ray Robinson. Better than Ali. Although temporarily beaten by the brit randolph turpin)
Donald Bradman. So seemingly invincible the England team had to try a 'let's kill the opposition' strategy, which was disgraceful given that it was cricket we are talking about.

[Santos L Halper]

How about Babe Zaharias?

[Captain Yossarian]

Good lists Benno and Contemporary Dog, though I am trying to regain my composure after reading Sadkens (Leyton Orient!!) and Dim's (Ludwig's) delusional statement that he was in the US when Ali was known as Cassius Clay.

Jimmy White is a living legend. Anyone who loses a World Championship 6 times is going to generate a lot of sympathy!

I like the fact that people have mentioned Paulo Di Canio and Henrik Larsson - two players who have brought joy to the Premierships in both England and Scotland. The scenes at Larsson's last game for Celtic were incredibly emotional. It's fantastic to see him carrying on so well at Barcelona. For football I would choose one from Pele, Kenny Dalgliesh, Peter Beardsley, Eric Cantona, Zidane, Maradona, Henry and Matt Le Tissier. Ultimately it has to be Maradona because of the way he won the league for Napoli single-handedly. He had been poor at Barcelona but arrived in Napoli and led the first ever team from the Italian south to a Championship - and did it with such skill and verve.

I find it particularly hard to nominate a candidate for tennis. Navratilova and Graf completely dominated their sport for years. Graf was somewhat overshadowed by Seles for a while (until she was stabbed) though and Navratilova's record off grass was poor. Agassi and McEnroe are the two most natural players I have ever seen. Lendl, Borg, Becker, Sampras etc - all wonderful players but I have never seen anyone play with such sublime skill as McEnroe. Last month he beat the (Scottish) Junior American Open winner!

Cricket - there simply isn't anyone who can top Donald Bradman. An average of 99 over his career! How can that ever be topped?

Formula 1 is tough too - Fangio, Prost, Senna, Schumacher??

[benno]

[benno]

[benno]

[donfan]

great to see American ignorance alive and well

my top five

1. Don Bradman (cricket)
1. James Hird (Aussie Rules)
2. Ian Thorpe (swimming)
3. Michael Jordon (basketball)
4. Pele (soccer)

[ContemporaryDog]

Yes Benno, good as Pele was, the simple fact is that the rest of the Argentina team in 1986 were not very good. Had Maradonna not been there, England might well have beaten them.

To virtually single handedly win what is basically sport's biggest prize (end of story) is remarkable.

(but he was still a git for scoring that handball

[JosephP]

Nova Scotian Lawn Bowling Legends from 1973 are -- Dick Campbell, Al Brown, John Sprowl, Joe Tidd and John Wightman.
Bloody studs. Great sportsman and any who deny it are bloody wrong wrong wrong!