Job Discussion Forums

[kathleen]

JD, are you suggesting that we compromise our standards out of fear of reprisal? You have truly become Chinese!

I'm still fighting Irish/American. Damn the torpedoes!

I've never actually failed a student in a course but I've given a few 60s and even had one student moved out of the English department because he had such a bad speech and hearing impediment that I felt it was cruel to keep him in a major where he was bound to fail. That student was grateful to me and went on to do good work in another department.

The higher you raise the bar in the class, the better the quality of work the students will do. This is not only true in China but also in America, the only two countries where I have taught.

[J.D.]

No Kathleen - there is a Santa Clause.

I failed five students. That was my failure as a teacher.

[chastenosferatu]

Hear ye hear ye if we fail a student we will bring nuclear holocaust to our homelands!!! Thus sayeth the almighty. Amen.
Puhleeeeeeeease.
Integrity.
Standards.
Morality.
Ethics.
EDUCATION.
It is not an easy road. Many are ill-equipped, not just educationally, but mentally and emotionally, not strong enough, to be a teacher.
I will now pause as I invite all present to do some soul searching, a little introspection if you will...

[Hamish]

Interesting discussion this.

At our school we have been told that �about 5%� of the class should fail the first exam. On the second attempt at the exam �less� should fail. �Some� will be failed completely and not allowed to graduate.

Given the harsh reality of failure for a college student in China, and the economics of educational institutions that are not supported by the central government, I don�t see this policy as being unreasonable.

It is really not that different in the US. Look at the �academic� record and resume of the sitting President of the United States.

Regards,

[J.D.]

Mr. "C":

I appologise. Please forgive me. I lost me head, temporarily. I was way out of line.

Of course I should have more respect for my job and my employer and my students. So sorry. I was temporarily reminded that I can be replaced very satisfactorily, at least in the mind of my Chinese employer, by any native English speaker with or without a high school diploma and also by many L2 from places where they grow em with very large mamory glands and blond hair.

I so very humbly ask for your forgiveness and request that I not follow in the foosteps of the late great NOYB, Dragon and MW. Please let me stay and play in your sand box. Please???????

[kathleen]

Where do you work, JD? You need to find a better job. I would fail a student if I had to. I try to teach a class that my students can pass. I work at a very good university and most of my students are quite good. There are some duffers but my point is, they know I mean business and they work harder as a result. I fail them on midterms and they shape up for the final.

Saint Nicholas was a real person and his spirit lives on.

[J.D.]

The original post by the late great MW was:

DO CHINESE STUDENTS CHEAT? Not what should we do about it.

He went on to answer hos own stupid question as follows:

MW
Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 115
Location: China
Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 11:46 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question: Do Chinese Students Cheat?

Correct Answer: Is the Pope Catholic?


Even HE recognized the Pope and his ability, and his alone, to grant sainthood to those to be sanctified by the great mother, one and only, true Church. Yes there was a Saint Nicholas, I know the complete history, but what it has to do with the birth of Jesus Christ is anyone's guess.

Well, now I am completely off topic, or is that off my rocker?

You see Kathleen, I am old and grey, short and fat, hard of hearing and short on sight.

But my teeth have not fallen out, at least not all of them, yet. And so I am a "Foreign Expert."

Where do I work? CHINA of course!

[chastenosferatu]

JD, the only possible reason I can fathom for positing such an obviously answerable question like "Do Chinese students cheat?" is to discuss how to handle it. At least its the only positive way the discussion could go from where I stand.
As for St. Nick, he was the mid-wife for Mary I believe.

[hubei_canuk]

Do chinese students cheat?
Do their role models cheat?
Do the people who determine their eduucation cheat?
Do the commies cheat?
Do the commies murder?
Do the commies lie?
Do the commies exproproiate?
Do the commies rule with totalitarian deadiness and nastiness.
.....................
Things are NOT crazy here. The people are NOT crazy. Everything has a reason and a purpose. Chinese are human beings like eveyone else. They are taught to behave they way they do. It is the lesson of the four character classic.
.....................
Every school has a commie minder.
Here a school is not a school, a student is not a student, a newspaper is not a newspaper.
They all have the same names but they are not the same things.
You have crossed into another dimension of sight and sound.
Things are not what they appear to be.
You must check your expectations and model of the universe in at the customs at the airport. You will get them back when you leave China.
..
But i understand. For the sake of for their sanity clause it is necessary for most to believe they are still in Kansas.
Has anyone seen Toto? I can't seem to find him?

[chastenosferatu]

Toto was delicious. Who knew Sweet-n-sour pooch was so damn good.
Mmmmm, gou-ro.

[Hamish]

[kathleen]

Thank you Chaste and Canuk for your comments. As many Chinese will tell you, this is a culture of dishonesty that has developed over the centuries in response to authoritarianism. I believe it was just as bad before Communism, but canuk may beg to differ with me. Communism a la chinois has morphed from confucianism and feudalism as much as from Marx. Maybe cheating is even in their genes. Many of them will tell you that they think it's fun to cheat someone, a kind of game.

Lying ia a survival strategy in this country and kids learn it very young. Some of the Chinese professors here give brutally difficult exams. I just think that we can set our own standards for our classes and try to give students a different experience. I am not a Pollyanna. I'm 48 years old and have lots of experience in the classroom and in business. Most importantly, I have students who studied with me and my methods 8 years ago who are grateful for the knowlege and experience they gained in my classroom and have gone on to good jobs where they use their English daily. That is satisfying and that is what this gig is all about.

[chastenosferatu]

Kathleen there is a large body of thought that would agree with you on your point about this system and the previous ones being the source of our grief and that they are the continutaion of the same style of authoritarian rule with a different label.
Most notably the sinologist and author Jean Levi.
Nice to hear you have had such nice returns on your investment.

[Stephen]

Just thought I'd have my say.

Do Chinese students cheat in Taiwan?
Yes, or at least try, many are incapable of not doing so.

It is certainly not just down to communism.

[Sunpower]

I'm over here teaching part time at a small junior college in Taipei and have had the same problem with my students cheating - Not all of them but a few.

And it's blatant as all get out!

Two girls that sit beside each other (I left the room and came back and they were talking) had identical answers for an entire short answer section of the exam - word for word the same!

The Dean told me to fail them.

But then one of the senior instructors told me basically what JD said, the Dean will pass them anyway.

I saw this happen to me in Tokyo as well. I gave people a "Did Not Complete" on thier student grade cards for those students who didn't do the assignments.

2 weeks later I received a print out from admin of the grades from my class - The ones that didn't do the assignments still got 60%.

Pretty interesting, eh?
I couldn't believe it.

I said nothing and just tried to do what I could. I realized that saying anything would be pointless and just make my life difficult.

It still bothers me but not as much as when it happened the first time.

I understand that that's the way things are done in many of these colleges in South Korea, China, Taiwan and Japan.