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[Twisting in the Wind]

I have been a student of Latin American folk music, specifically Andean music, for some 20 years. In those folk songs, which I think might be pretty reflective of colloquial speech, the words negro, negrito, moreno etc, are bandied about often and not at all pejorative. If you were to ask a Mexican, or Bolivian or peruvian what the words "mean," or i what sense they are meant, likely he will not understand the question. It is just the way he talks.

[Twisting in the Wind]

One thing I have learned in 20 years in this field: IT is only Americans and linguists who have the luxery of asking the question, "Why?" when it comes to language. Other country's people are just too busy trabajando como negritos pa' hacer una pregunta asi.

[Guy Courchesne]

The high ground...lol Good point.

At no time here have I passed some kind of judgement on Mexico, Latinos, or anyone who uses the one phrase discussed, and at that, used in a particular context in one of my classes. The only thing I will conclude with on this is that I personally take as as derogatory, and as I've mentioned repeatedly, understand that it is not meant as a racial slur in Mexico.

[Twisting in the Wind]

[Guy Courchesne]

Sorry Twisty, I was more replying to Guty than to you really. I'm in the same headspace as you on this thread.

[Stephen Jones]

"negro" is certainly not derogatory in Spanish. "Negritos",pace Antonio Mach�n, might be a little condescending.

Which reminds me of a discussion program on Spanish television many years ago when one of the Spanish was trying to explain that in Spain there was no racism because the only negros they heard about were the little African children they saw pictures of when the Catholic missionaries asked for donations.

"En Espa�a no hay negros, s�lo negritos," he said, and then remembering the black guy sitting next to him who was six foot six and sixteen stone, "...... y negrazos".

The phrase "I�ve been working like a nigger" is not in the least derogatory in British English, though no doubt there will be an Afro-American equivalent of Moonraven to gripe about it.

[Twisting in the Wind]

[Twisting in the Wind]

[Guy Courchesne]

Just for curiosity's sake, how do the verbs to gyp or to Jew or to be Jewed strike you all?

Don't know if they are used worldwide.

"the crooked clerk gyped me! This widget is broken'
'the bank totally jewed me on my mortgage'

[Stephen Jones]

Clearly derogatory.

But getting them erased from the dictonary, as Jewish groups have succeeded in the States and tried in the UK, is not the appropriate response. Dictionary writers have an obligation to reflect the historical meaning of words.

[Twisting in the Wind]

I cringe when I hear them, and my older family members still use them (just as they use the terms "ni**er," "Chinaman," and "Jap.") Mr. Twisting got mad at my Aunt a few years ago because she used the "N" word in our household. But that was the world that she was brought up in and she doesn't give it a second thought, unfortunately. Prejudice and language is an evolution. In white usage it went from the N word to "negro," to "colored," to black" to "African American," and getting less and less prejudiced (hopefully) and more and more culturally aware. The emrgence of ethnic studies depts at universities and many universities requiring at least some subjects from these depts as requirements for graduation has helped society evolve IMO.

[Guy Courchesne]

Interesting to see what is considered derogatory, when, and by whom...

I remember when I was a child, it was fairly common to hear 'getting jewed' or 'getting gyped', even on the playground. I went to a Catholic elementary school in Canada if that matters.

I too still hear older Canadians using those terms. Funny..in a phone conversation with my mother the other day, she used 'towelheads' in describing Arabs, but that's just my mother going a little batty as she ages and watches too much Fox news.

These kind of expressions are why I feel that trabajando como un negro is derogatory...it simply reinforces a steroetype...black slavery, Jewish or Gypsy cheating, Mexican laziness, etc, etc, and many more examples we could think of. I suppose a common expression using stereotype only becomes derogatory when someone from the target group pipes up and says 'hey wait!'.

Anyway, back to the lighter stuff. Whenever I get a class of new Mexican ESL students, I like to warm them up by putting on a good, thick gringo accent and noting that 'de Hablar en mi clase, nadie debe estar embarazado"

[Twisting in the Wind]

[Twisting in the Wind]

Incidently, I was an adult before I realized that "Gyp" referred to "gypsies."

[thelmadatter]

I looked up "gyp" on dictionary.com because I was surprised to see Guy categorized it with "to jew" I had not heard the verb "to jew" before (but being from the NYC area I am sure aware of the stereotype behind it) but "to gyp" is commonly used without any racial connotations that I am aware of.

dictionary.com says that it is slang and probably a shortened form of "gypsy" If so, that would explain why no racial connotations for me... we have just about every ethnic persuasion you can think of but gypsies are not one of them.

Question similar to the Spanish use of "negrito"... if I mean no racial slur (hell, if Im not even aware of ANY racial connotation) by the term but others do... does that mean I am racist if I use it? I think not personally.