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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Nismo wrote: |
Update: I was just looking at the picture in the article when this struck me -
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| A sign erected at the entrence to a pachinko parlor... |
You can't erect a sign unless it is posted into a base. You hang a sign, or post a sign. This really has nothing to do with anything, I was just annoyed at the article in general and wanted to point out Debito's faulty command of English. |
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| Nismo wrote: |
His article is slanderous and points out nothing but fault, gives no reason besides that the fear was established through English, German, and Italian governments, and even quotes someone as saying that Japanese have wanted to ban foreigners all along and were just waiting for the right time to arise.
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If you're going to critique a person on their language ability when writing, I suggest looking in the mirror yourself so that you can see the egg.
Slader is oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation. Libel is written. It is impossible for an article to be slanderous.
For more information, www.dictionary.com can help.
To take a page from your book..."This really has nothing to do with anything, I was just annoyed at the post in general and wanted to point out Nismo's faulty command of English."  |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| Nismo wrote: |
But earlier you said he is Japanese, in the sense that he is a citizen. It is apparent in his articles that he is irked that he is discriminated against despite his nationality. He is a minority on that issue and I see his articles as self-serving.
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It may be self serving, at he also said he became Japanese so people could say only Japanese are allowed in here. He wants for everyone else what he can not get for himself as a Japanese. Being self-serving is not a crime. Working in Japan for a salary is self-serving too, as you are looking after number 1. if you want to look at it that way.
[quote="Nismo"]Discrimination against foreigners should not be allowed, and I am not trying to justify it at all. I despise discrimination of foreigners in Japan. I can't see where you are misinterpretting me, but you continue to do so. If in the future you wish to quote me on my stance of discrimination of foreigners, please refer to the portion of this post I have typed in bold letters.
| PAULH wrote: |
| I would also say if his writing is good enough for the Japan Times he cant be doing too badly for a largely amateur writer. he is not a professional journalist in the strict sense of the word, is fairly prolific though he has just published a commercial book on the onsen case. |
You are saying becuase only one guy got turned away in a bar with his friends and Gelnski can only count 6 shops in Susukino that have signs then that makes discrimination OK because of only a few bad apples, becuase they are not posted on every street corner. Again, how much is too much?
[quote="Nismo"]
| PAULH wrote: |
| JWhat I was getting at is that standards must be declining if his work can be published in the Japan Times. That article even gives me hope that I might find a position writing for the Japan Times one day. That isn't a good thing.. |
That is simply one persons opinion- yours. You are entitled to your opinions but my guess is Japan Times knows what they are doing, and there is enough gutter press around anyway. Just look at national enquirer. You actually have to have something to say first, rather than spout platitudes and cliches and wishful thinking.
| Nismo wrote: |
As far as job security goes - you made the decision to be where you are at right now with full knowledge of how the system works. Taking your vows, starting a family, residing in Japan - all of it comes down to your own free-will. You decided to put yourself in the situation that you are in. It was a gamble, and it seems like you are still juggling what life in Japan is throwing at you.
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To be honest I didnt know about 3 year contracts when I started and all things considered apart from the term limit issue the perks etc are not bad. the point is, there is no alternative in Japan to the term limits and I know dozens, if not hundreds of teachers with families, loans and mortgages who are in exactly the same boat as I am. Its not a matter of having a choice, its a matter of dealing with the card you are dealt. I guess I could stay at NOVA on half the salary but there is no job security there either. Anyway, is any of this 'free will?' I wont get into a philosophical debate but I can see the same thing happenng to you in 5 years if you decide to come back here and/or you got married. im not saying it will, but IF. your thinking changes as you mature and get older. I was 23 myself, once.
| Nismo wrote: |
You did make the conscious decision to take a position, knowing in full the results of your contract, did you not? Give them an inch...
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Nismo, Im not looking for pity here, but in January I had a wife, two children, one in an international school and bills to pay. And no job or income lined up for April. 30 rejections for job offers in my mail box from universities all over the country. There are virtually NO universities in Japan that do not have term limits of one year or more. Faced with one make or break interview and the choice of returning home or being unemployed in Japan with a wife who doesnt work what would you do. Its not a matter of choice, its necessity. Don't be so trite, as no one can predict what will happen to them ten years in the future, ten years hence. It was thousands of peoples choice to spend a holiday in Thailand, no one can know what will happen to them, you just deal with the consequences, natural or not.
| Nismo wrote: |
I don't know, but it's a phenomenon that I despise and one of the major contributors to my alienation from the nation I happened to be born in.
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What I dont understand sometimes is your utter obsession with Japan, while ignoring the warts to the point of defending racists. The Edwin Reischauer school of Japanology.
Last edited by PAULH on Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| canuck wrote: |
For more information, www.dictionary.com can help.
To take a page from your book..."This really has nothing to do with anything, I was just annoyed at the post in general and wanted to point out Nismo's faulty command of English. |
Again, I'm typing on a public forum. That's entirely different than making money off of a published article. However, I did take your advice and checked out dictionary.com and the definition had this to say:
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slan�der Audio pronunciation of "slander" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (slndr)
n.
1. Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone. |
Note that number 2 does not explicitly mention the medium of communication. The reason is that language is re-defined through colloquial use.
You'll be happy to know that the word nice is now used as a compliment, despite its original meaning being wanton, immoral, or lewd.
| Quote: |
nice Audio pronunciation of "nice" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ns)
adj. nic�er, nic�est
1. Pleasing and agreeable in nature: had a nice time.
*SNIP*
9. Obsolete.
1. Wanton; profligate: �For when mine hours/Were nice and lucky, men did ransom lives/Of me for jests� (Shakespeare).
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Language evolves, and it is the language-nazi who has most trouble letting go. Good job, though - I had completely forgot about the useless distinction between libel and slander that I had, at one time, studied in high school. Regardless of what you point out about me, it still doesn't change my stance on Debito's article.
Cheers. |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Nismo wrote: |
| Language evolves, and it is the language-nazi who has most trouble letting go. Good job, though - I had completely forgot about the useless distinction between libel and slander that I had, at one time, studied in high school. Regardless of what you point out about me, it still doesn't change my stance on Debito's article. |
If language evolves, then couldn't a sign be erected then too? Language evolves..right?  You decided to wear the shoe of "language-nazi" earlier. I was just wearing the gloves of egg thrower.
If you want to start the evolution, try...but I'll stand by slander being oral and libel being written. 
P.S. It was an opportunity for you to say, "Yeah, I made a mistake even through I pointed out other people's mistakes and made fun of them" yet you decided to dismiss your error as a "useless distinction."
As far as changing your opinion about the article, not needed. That's what makes the world go around. I just politely disagree.  |
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Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:55 am Post subject: |
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You know, I will completely apologize to Debito if he ends up being the pioneer of signs being erected on walls. However, that was the first time I have ever heard that term applied. It struck me as being so off I had to read it back to myself and I actually laughed. I often hear slander interchanged with libel, so I don't really think twice about it.
Edit: I just cracked myself up again. The sign was erected on a window. Simple minds are easily pleased. I know my place.
Last edited by Nismo on Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| Nismo wrote: |
You'll be happy to know that the word nice is now used as a compliment, despite its original meaning being wanton, immoral, or lewd.
| Quote: |
nice Audio pronunciation of "nice" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ns)
adj. nic�er, nic�est
1. Pleasing and agreeable in nature: had a nice time.
*SNIP*
9. Obsolete.
1. Wanton; profligate: �For when mine hours/Were nice and lucky, men did ransom lives/Of me for jests� (Shakespeare).
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This has nothing to do with the conversation.
You'll be happy to know that in the Scrabble dictionary, et used to be used as the past tense to the verb to eat. Maybe my students need to know that one. I'm done too with this line of responses by the way.
Last edited by canuck on Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| Nismo wrote: |
The article continually points out that when the visitor of Japan returns home he will present his home country with a bad image of Japan. Debito himself is putting a single incident under a microscope and claiming what you see is to scale. His article is slanderous and points out nothing but fault, gives no reason besides that the fear was established through English, German, and Italian governments, and even quotes someone as saying that Japanese have wanted to ban foreigners all along and were just waiting for the right time to arise.
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Nismo, you can only slander people, not countries. People say bad stuff about America and Japan all the time. Its not slander. Who does he slander in his article? If the stuff is true about racist bar owners how can it be slanderous?
Call Bush a warmongering idiot and thats a different story. |
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Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| Nismo, you can only slander people, not countries. People say bad stuff about America and Japan all the time. Its not slander. Who does he slander in his article? If the stuff is true about racist bar owners how can it be slanderous? |
Well, as Canuck pointed out earlier, I suppose it was libel against business owners in Hokkaido, as debito does little to avoid giving readers the impression that most businesses there will reject foreigners. I don't know which would be worse for the tourism industry - the possibly few businesses that refuse service to foreigners, or the article debito published.
| PAULH wrote: |
| Call Bush a warmongering idiot and thats a different story. |
I'm with you on that one. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:16 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Nismo"]
| PAULH wrote: |
| Nismo, you can only slander people, not countries. People say bad stuff about America and Japan all the time. Its not slander. Who does he slander in his article? If the stuff is true about racist bar owners how can it be slanderous? |
Well, as Canuck pointed out earlier, I suppose it was libel against business owners in Hokkaido, as debito does little to avoid giving readers the impression that most businesses there will reject foreigners. I don't know which would be worse for the tourism industry - the possibly few businesses that refuse service to foreigners, or the article debito published.
Nismo, its very unlike Hokkaido bar owners will read the Japan Times and even if they did I doubt they would care.
Maybe so if its in the local Japanese papers where they can see it.. Obviously if people read about this stuff and people stay away as a result it can only be bad for business e.g. hotels etc. Many people rely on tourists to stay afloat. Except in Hokkaido they dont care who they offend and all they really do is give themselves enough rope to hang themselves. They are quite happy having their Japanese regulars etc, until the business clientele stops coming.
Just think what a small ripple does when you throw a pebble in a pond. Japan's reputation as a tourist destination is bad as it is. No need to have bar owners make it worse for them. |
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homersimpson
Joined: 14 Feb 2003
Posts: 569
Location: Kagoshima
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Note that number 2 does not explicitly mention the medium of communication. The reason is that language is re-defined through colloquial use. |
Actually, in terms of journalism as it applies to law, slander is spoken and libel is written, but that's beside the point.
Because it's a holiday in Japan it gives me a great opportunity to point out the so-called "nationalistic" buses that drive around town blasting (and I mean at ear-shattering volume) messages to the good folks. Imagine if in the U.S. on Christmas Day, the Fourth of July, Memorial Day etc., if the KKK drove around your hometown. Of course, legally, nothing could be down regarding the speech, but they would be cited for violating local noise ordinances. But even more to the point, the public outcry would be enormous. How many Japanese do you know who bemoan these buses (not for the noise, but for the message)? Both Paul and Nismo have made some good points in this thread, but I believe one of them is a little green (I think we know who). Respect is earned, not rights; by definition a "right" cannot be earned as it is an entitlement. (i.e. "You have the right to remain silent.")
Last edited by homersimpson on Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:34 am Post subject: Flip the situation around |
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Ummm... Economic viability aside, I have a question. What if I set up a business here in Japan (legally)... Let's say a "gaijin bar." Then I put up a signout front in Japanese that said: "No Japanese Allowed. All Japanese must be accompanied by a foreigner."
Would it fly? Legally? I bet you anything that the news media and all SORTS of people would be on my case over it... But maybe it would be a good way for someone to prove a point. I can just imagine -- let in the whole United Nations: Americans, Brits, Canadians, Australians, Philipinos, Brasilians, Peruvians, New Zealanders, ANYONE except a Japanese citizen....
I ask you... (Seriously). Could I do it? |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| You may get a visit from the local, friendly yakuza or that ultra-right wing nationalist group that travels up and down the street in those big black vans. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Flip the situation around |
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| JimDunlop2 wrote: |
Ummm... Economic viability aside, I have a question. What if I set up a business here in Japan (legally)... Let's say a "gaijin bar." Then I put up a signout front in Japanese that said: "No Japanese Allowed. All Japanese must be accompanied by a foreigner."
Would it fly? Legally? I bet you anything that the news media and all SORTS of people would be on my case over it... But maybe it would be a good way for someone to prove a point. I can just imagine -- let in the whole United Nations: Americans, Brits, Canadians, Australians, Philipinos, Brasilians, Peruvians, New Zealanders, ANYONE except a Japanese citizen....
I ask you... (Seriously). Could I do it? |
Just incase you don't know, there are villas in Okayama where japanese can not make a reservation unless accompanied by a foreigner.
Could make a gaijin bar where Japanese can not come in unless with a foreigner and if its a private club you can refuse who you like. I would expect the press and sound trucks would be all over it though.
Then we couldnt ask Debito..... |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Flip the situation around |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| JimDunlop2 wrote: |
Ummm... Economic viability aside, I have a question. What if I set up a business here in Japan (legally)... Let's say a "gaijin bar." Then I put up a signout front in Japanese that said: "No Japanese Allowed. All Japanese must be accompanied by a foreigner."
Would it fly? Legally? I bet you anything that the news media and all SORTS of people would be on my case over it... But maybe it would be a good way for someone to prove a point. I can just imagine -- let in the whole United Nations: Americans, Brits, Canadians, Australians, Philipinos, Brasilians, Peruvians, New Zealanders, ANYONE except a Japanese citizen....
I ask you... (Seriously). Could I do it? |
Just incase you don't know, there are villas in Okayama where japanese can not make a reservation unless accompanied by a foreigner.
Could make a gaijin bar where Japanese can not come in unless with a foreigner and if its a private club you can refuse who you like. I would expect the press and sound trucks would be all over it though.
Then we couldnt ask Debito..... |
Here's the Okayama link. Have never satyed there, but I may one day as they are pretty close to me.
http://www.harenet.ne.jp/villa/ |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Nismo wrote: |
| ]Discrimination against foreigners should not be allowed, and I am not trying to justify it at all. I despise discrimination of foreigners in Japan. I can't see where you are misinterpretting me, but you continue to do so. If in the future you wish to quote me on my stance of discrimination of foreigners, please refer to the portion of this post I have typed in bold letters.. |
Nismo, why do you care about foreigners here?
You don't even live here, for crying out loud. Its like saying I worry about the homeless beggars in Beijing or street peddlers in Thailand. Why the sudden altruism for your ex-pat brethren in Wa, most of whome don't even acknowledge your existence? Do you light a candle for our poor oppressed foreign community in their hour of need? My prayers are with you, brother.
One doth think you have become Wa-ified in your tender youth. |
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