Job Discussion Forums

[Qaaolchoura]

[spiral78]

[Qaaolchoura]

[spiral78]

I've lived in the US, Canada, and three European countries (I have had some extended holidays in Turkey and I like it too). I can say, though, that culturally each country I've lived in is VASTLY different in many ways.

Consider, for example, religion (since you mentioned it). It has a very different place in Candian culture and society than in the US, and I wouldn't even begin to compare this aspect of, say the Czech Rep and the US - total apples and oranges!

The Dutch watch a lot of US television (unsubtitled) which may well contribute to their general ease with English. However, I can say from personal experience and I think most Dutch people will tell you that they, as a people, bear VERY little resemblance to Americans. Their society is differently organised and run in so many ways, it's difficult to find important similarities, honestly!

A level of cultural ease really still doesn't indicate that open borders would be beneficial overall.

And don't put all the blame on the US - I'm quite sure that the Dutch wouldn't really welcome a wholesale influx of Yanks, either

Actually, the general perception of Americans on the European side is a pretty mixed bag. I'm not so sure that many/any countries in the Schengen zone would welcome an influx of the stereotypical American they hear of on the news (not that all of us fit the image, of course, but the stereotypes do usually contain some truth). There is some perception that Americans are more religiously-influenced, more often tote guns, are against what Europeans consider normal social programmes, etc....No, it's not all about the US not wanting to give up its border controls!!

[AGoodStory]

Wow, Q! What a wild idea! It's really captured my imagination. I agree with Xie Lin--great out-of-box (or Zone! thanks, Sasha) thinking. Unfortunately, I must also agree with Spiral about its utter unworkability. Nonetheless, it's a lot of fun to contemplate. Perhaps a hundred years or more from now our politicians will catch up with you!

.

[spiral78]

Well, in a perfectly free market, I think everyone should be able to go and live anywhere he/she can find an employer who wants to employ him/her. Said employment would have to be sufficient so that the person would not be a burden to the state in any way.

There would have to be formulas tied to work/tax paying in the employees' new country to determine eligibility for health care, subsidised schooling, pensions, and other benefits.

One reason it wouldn't work is that in a country like Spain at the moment, it's fair not to be giving jobs to foreigners unnecessarily when so many natives are out of work.
It's also far too open to nepotism of all types, and would likely be abused by people with racial/religious/other agendas ('my factory only hires Christians, or whites, or gun owners, or my own extended family members, etc, etc).

So my unifying idea is equally unworkable.

[Sashadroogie]

Turkey is a great place - but do other posters really find it European culturally? I didn't really. And neither does the EU, which has basically blocked all and any efforts by the Turks to join. As far as I know, they don't much care for the European dream any more and have adopted Neo-Ottomanism instead.

Maybe the US and Australia would like to be part of the Neo-Ottoman zone too?

[Teacher in Rome]

[Sashadroogie]

True. That's the excuse. But everybody knows that Cyprus is just fig-leaf - or should that be a cyprus leaf? What the EU really doesn't want is numberless young unemployed Turks from the unlettered steppes of Anatolia flooding past border control - legally.

Human rights? Another excuse - one that gets more laughable in light of the extraordinary rendition cases.

Turkey has the above mentioned faults, but that isn't what the EU really cares about. Neither is it Islam, as the Turks constantly complain about. It is the demographics. Add to that having a lengthy and porous border with most of the less-favoured states in the Middle East. An EU border brushing up against Syria, Iran, Iraq, Georgia etc?

[Teacher in Rome]

I pretty much agree with everything you have said Sasha, but the reasons you gave didn't stop the EU trying to expand its realm eastwards. What happened there (and is in theory possible with Turkey) is to not immediately award right of work / free travel. In fact, only the UK and Ireland welcomed new EU member citizens in to work. This wasn't the case in Italy, for example, where Poles and Rumanians didn't have automatic right to work.

[Sashadroogie]

This is very true, but again, it is the demographics that count. The new Eastern European members do not have populations with an increasingly high proportion of young people, barely educated, just chomping at the bit to emigrate.

Not saying I agree with this reasoning, but this what I have always seen as the logic that the EU is employing.

[JosephP]

[spiral78]

Theoretically, I guess. But with the computerised databases used these days, I guess there's still a risk.

[choudoufu]

[Sashadroogie]

I did mention it. I said the Turks always complain that they are excluded on the basis of their religion.

They always make hay of the 'Christian club' argument, and there may be a tiny bit of truth in that. But it is the birthrate there and low level of opportunity more than anything else that makes Turkey's entry unlikely.

Similar arguments were made against Spain's entry, and Greece's back in the 70s. They also were too poor, filled with peasants, basically dictatorships etc. They managed to join (during the Cold War...) basically because they are geographically part of Europe and/or have low enough populations not to disturb any balances elsewhere. Under 12 million Greeks today as opposed to 73 odd million Turks...