Job Discussion Forums

[usool]

Hi there

If you think that women left the home in the west for the workplace out of 'choice' then I think you have a particularly revisionist version of history. They did not, they were forced out of economic necessity as they are in many third world and developing countries today.

Prof James Tooley, Prof of Education at Newcastle Uni, has a nice book called 'Miseducation of Women' where whilst not calling for women to stay home he does say that society, the media and confused souls like veiledsentiments should stop telling women that sucess is in work. In fact what he found was thar careers made women more miserable. The fact that women leave the house to work in the Muslim world is nothing to do with choice, its either economic pressure or the result of the globalisation of non-truths the spreading of the myth and lie that women will be happier working outside the house.

Regards and best wishes

[younggeorge]

Usool: I think we'll have to agree to differ on this. Certainly there's an element of economic necessity, but I know a lot of women who really do prefer to work and don't consider they've been pressured or persuaded by untruths. How do you think the UAE's new Minister of Finance, Shaikha Lubna, would feel if she were told that she couldn't have that position or any of the leadership roles she's had previously?

[erma]

Hi all,

It seems this thread just got revived. Even though the debate seems to have shifted to other issues (not that I don't enjoy it ), I'm glad to know that ZU is shifting toward being research-oriented as well. 12 contact hours may seem a bit too heavy teaching load, but i've heard from other sources that class size is relatively small (20-25 students, is that right?), so it's not that bad.

Also, if anyone wants to volunteer extra information regarding the expected/estimate salary range (with PhD from the US) in social sciences, you'll be more than welcome

Best,
Erma

[younggeorge]

[erma]

Hi younggeorge, that was really quick...

As for 'Honda' guy, maybe I want to drive Honda so that I can stash more cash... ... but seriosly, never really liked SUVs, though you never know... don't have anything against BMW too...

Again, a more tangible answer (numbers, numbers) would give me a better picture than this whole Honda or SUV thing... But, I think I have a rough idea about what I can expect...

When you said ZU is becoming more research-oriented, do they provide research grants? How about the library? Is it well equipped? I know that technological facilities are supposedly awesome. Thanks,

Erma

[younggeorge]

Erma: it's quick when you're both online at the same time. Sorry, can't do the numbers. The ELC has gone more open with pay scales, but other departments are still clad in secrecy so I can't tell you any more than is on the website. However, the ELC is pretty much bottom of the pecking order - English teachers are ten-a-penny (that should get a few replies!) - so I'd be surprised if you were offered anything less than 15,000 AED per month, whatever happens to the promised 15% raise.

Research grants are more likely to come in terms of covering your expenses and possibly giving you a reduced teaching load than in terms of cash in hand. If you PM me your email address, I'll see if I can forward you a couple of the recent documents that have come out about research.

[usool]

Hi George

The point is not that some women want to work outside of the house, it is, as pointed out well by Prof Tooley, that the media gives them the message that this is THE place to be. In the west the women appear to have come full circle, having been duped into believing that the best place to be is in the workplace, many now realise that its not the paradise they were left to believe.

What I raised objection to was the extremely patronising nature of the posts, that the women there were being freed to go and purse nirvana in the workplace. There is no doubt that the capitalist machine is winning in driving them out of the house in false pretexts, they [the capitalists] have good experience, I mean they did it in the west before.

There is an alternative gender discourse that exists not only in the Muslim world but in tradtional societies generally.

Regards and best wishes

[younggeorge]

Usool: Understood. In fact, it was a similar feeling that got me to join this forum in the first place: it sounded like someone (I forget who, now) was saying "There's no point teaching the girls because they're only going to get married". I just had to reply to that and, in the process, I might have gone over the top with emphasising how they were going to have careers.

I'd still like to think, though, that we're giving them options which they actually want and not taking part in any duping exercise, capitalist or otherwise. And I hope you'd agree that education has a value in itself, whether or not it's used to get a job.

[usool]

Hi George

The politics of gener can be discussed in an intellectual climate where two sides gives their own understanding of what they constitute to be a proper deliniation of the role of women in society or alternatively it can be approached from a very one sided angle where one side believes themselves to be right and the other wrong with no willingness to discuss. In my experience in the Gulf I find that many westerners who arrive in the gulf have very negative ideas of the role of women in Islaam and in the middle east and adopt a 'we pity them' attitude'. I have attempted to address in an intellectual climate the gender discourse of Muslims but it's usually like talking to a brick wall. Many TEFL practitioners consider that their work includes not only teaching English but spreading the gospel of womens emancipation, perhaps praying alone at night that one day the women in the east will experience the nirvana of the women in the west. I am heartned that you do not fall into this category.

I agree wit you that education in and of itself has great merit. My wife is highly educated and she uses this education in the same manner I use mine, only her students are future generations of my own house wheras my students are future generations of other peoples households. Teaching is a noble profession and women who stay home to bring up children are the most noble of teachers. We agree 100% when they say

Behind every great man there is a woman,
and behind every great woman there is herself

Regards and best wishes

[veiledsentiments]

The status and position of women is always a discussion fraught with connotations and assumptions - especially for the women themselves. You have the problem of the grass always looking greener.

So many of the young women that I taught in the UAE were so eager to go to work - to feel that they were doing something for their country. But, many of them had families who would not even allow them to do work placement. Others just enjoyed the studying and didn't see any need to work at all.

And then you have many Western women, who have a good paying job that they enjoy and it provides crucial funds to support the lifestyle that their family has become accustomed to. When the children arrive and they would love to stay home with them, suddenly they find that they can't afford to stay home. And then you have the stay at home Mom that feels inferior because this society has suddenly started judging women by their 'real job.'

Then once we add cultural misunderstandings to the mix, it becomes very confused. The Western media has become obsessed with the veil and the Saudi women's not being allowed to drive. They have used these two things to generalize and distort reality. I have spent years trying to change minds here on these issues. Just as the Muslim countries tend to think all Western women live a life like in the movies or TV. And now female teachers have to deal with being grouped with the hooker invasion in parts of the Gulf.

I can only speak for myself here, but what I hoped for my students was a bit more choice for their future. Just like for those of us in the West, not every woman finds a good respectul husband or is able to stay married. Divorce is becoming more common in the Gulf and the dowry expense is causing problems too. So many of my students had at least one older sister that was either divorced or never married for various reasons.

I haven't seen anyone on this board suggest that motherhood and raising children is anything but an honorable profession. But, what about the women who never get that option? In most parts of the Muslim world there are many women working, but in some of the Gulf countries, women have very limited choices and in some families they have no choice at all.

The Muslim woman has the advantage of family support if she is single or divorced that the Western woman has lost in our society that has moved individualism to the fore. As usual, a 'perfect world' would be somewhere in the middle. Just as one person wondered if my students envied me, the reality is that there are reasons for envy from both sides. Some of my students may have envied 'some' of my freedoms, but I was just as able to envy them the close and loving relationships that they had with the women in their families. Both cultures have much to learn from each other and it is sad that things have become so polarized.

VS

[usool]

VeiledSentiments

In a truly free academic society people must be free to dissagree. In an academic sense if people really believe something then dissagreement will be expressed in strong sterms. The best of western academia still lives to this premise, and argue their case with passion. This is a healthy and positive way to ensure intellectual advancement. To this end there is nothing wrong with people thinking that Muslim women, or eastern women generally, are backward, and should aspire to western standards and freedoms. However the problem comes, and the root of facism is, when such people are unwilling to argue their case and simply insist they are right. However, this works both ways. If people don't believe in the Islamic injunctions regarding women, that is perfectly normal, they are free not to do so, however the idea that we have a discourse that is full of apologetic rhetoric is unhealthy. If someone has an argument they should state it, franky and openly, and provide evidence for what they are saying. Surely this is the hallmark of an intellectually free society. In true Huxley brave new world fashion the western world is veering away from this ideal. Now we have people who really dislike Islamic law refraining from saying so, preventing Muslims from positing a coherent response. The net result is that the western world, riddled by a history of right and left wing facism, fearing Islam.

In your post you suggest some rather shallow reasons why some Muslim women pity you. I found that post to be extremely offensive, for it gave an impression of women with a very shallow view of the western world. The reality is that many, if not most, women in the Muslim world view the position of women in the west with disdain as they see them being treated as nothing more than sexual objects by society at large. They see male executives in a male dominated western corporate world using women for purely economic reasons, and they see a society in which women are reduced to working long hours for low pay in many jobs and having to combine this with daily household chores. This view, that exists throughout the Muslim world, views women in the west as oppressed and used. As someone who has been in contact with Muslim women of all spectrums, from the truly secular to the truly religious, I am speaking from exprience.

As far the women in the Muslim world are concerned, then the issues you raised are 100% spot on. They do exist, the issue is the solution to these problems. Capitalists, liberalists and western influenced Muslims would argue that the solution is to emancipate women. Traditonalists like myslef would argue that that such emancipation has done nothing to advance the status of women in west, as Germaine Greer it has simply resulted in the women moving from being a slave in the house to a slave in the economy. For me the solution is to return to traditional values. The stigma relating to divorce needs to be abolished, dowry payments reduced and husbands need educating in the Islamic rights of women. I'm sure that many readers will consider that last phrase to be a contradiction in terms!

Regards and best wishes

[veiledsentiments]

[Gnocchiman]

[usool]

VS

You said:

Then there is the fact that these women feel sorry for Western women as we are obviously the most mistreated women in the world as our men have no respect for us at all.

and you gave the reasons for this pity as:

That is shown by the fact that even our husbands touch us in public - gasp, even kiss us (something that in their culture shows that the woman is a prostitute). The men allow their wives and daughters to run the streets with no chaperon to protect them... thus it is obvious that they do not love or respect us at all.

I have travelled all over the Muslim and non-Muslim world, have conversed with all manner of Muslim women, from the very young to the very old and this is the first time I have ever heard reasons such as these. If you're telling me that these are the reasons given to you direct by the girls themselves I find it amazing, and could only put it down to lingusitic issues that prevent them from explaining themselves. Muslim women are as articulate as any other and the reasons given for their dislike of the status of women in the west is almost always based around the issue of sexual slavery that many see western women tied into (advertisment and porn industries etc) and the lack of respect they must clearly discern for women from men in western societies.

Regards and best wishes

[veiledsentiments]

Usool

I was in a very fortunate situation when I was in the Emirates. I was teaching both entry level English and upper level content courses. It is common for students to bond with their first teachers - especially in English since we spend so much time in their first years. So, by the time they were in my content courses, many of them had moved me to almost a mentor or an older sister or aunt position. Not to mention that there is a real freedom of discussion that you have in a classroom of all your own sex that probably never occurs in a mixed class or even an all male class. (what with women of all cultures being more communicative amongst themselves) It was certainly a new experience for me having always been in a sexually integrated classroom situation. There were days that teaching got a bit sidelined by personal 'soap operas' - reminding me of why I was glad to not be 19 years old anymore.

These young women were as fascinated by my 'life' as I was by theirs. Once they got to know me and understood that they could say anything without my getting angry, many interesting things came out. And there were the ones that probably intended to shock me or bait me - students being students. So, after all this blather to frame it - yes I heard exactly those comments a number of times over the years.

Actually I heard similar comments from Gulf students that I taught in Egypt, but being new to the culture I was still learning. The first time I encountered it was in a remedial reading course of first year students - almost all of them from various Gulf countries. Suddenly there was a buzz of conversation in Arabic... obviously some of them upset about something in the book. The only word that I understood was 'haram.' All I could see was a very innocuous drawing of a man rushing out of the house in the morning to go to work... giving his wife a quick kiss goodby... on the front porch of the house. It took a number of questions from me about the problem before a couple of them explained that this was very bad. One should never kiss his wife in public. Naturally that sounded odd to me - so why not? They tried to explain to me about it being 'haram' and not showing repect. But I didn't really get it until I discussed it with some of my fellow Egyptian women teachers - who actually felt that the girls in my class has been a bit silly about it.

So, the next day I used the picture to talk about culture and language. I wanted to turn their negative response to a cultural difference to thinking about how misunderstandings happen - and to focus on similarities. I suggested that this couple lives in an American town - and across the street there is a little old lady - who watches out her windows as she drinks her morning tea. (they laughed... apparently they knew this woman too) If our Mr in the picture did not kiss his Mrs goodby in the morning, what would the old lady think? Well, she would assume that they were fighting - then she would tell all the neighbors about how this marriage is having problems and they are probably getting a divorce. Snoopy, gossipy neighbors are everywhere and they found it all amusing and familiar. I just wanted them to think about how they were judging that 'kiss' by the rules of their culture. But, the couple in the picture are following the rules of their culture.

Sorry for the long story, but I thought other teachers here might encounter something similar when they start teaching in the ME. Gnocchiman, I'm much too lazy to write a book - and besides I don't feel that I am an expert of any kind. I only have my experience and reading - and the more I know, the less I feel like an 'expert' if you know what I mean.

Usool, I completely agree with you (and your Muslim women friends) about the offensiveness of US movies and advertising. I am considered a bit of a prude, I fear. But, I was also often offended by many of the Egyptian TV ads which while not as graphic as American ads - way too often had children in very sexually connotative positions. I even complained to Oman television employee and got an Egyptian ad pulled from the air because although it was advertising milk - not understanding Arabic it looked to me as if they were selling child prostitutes - little girls made up and dressed as women in provocative situations. I suggested that they watch it with no sound and see if they agreed. The ad was pulled. Unfortunately, I would be wasting my breath over here if I complained. So I just don't watch TV.

The porn industry? Sex Slaves? Have you been to Dubai lately? Are you suggesting that maids have not often been mistreated - left raped and pregnant by the boys in their employers' families? Have you watched your Arab neighbor beat his wife in the hallway? Have you gone to the hospital to visit your student who was almost beat to death by her brother because she wants to stay in college? Have you had one of your students sobbing in your office because her father is making her marry a 50 year old Fundamentalist type and she fears that he will kill her if she say no - because he already killed her sister? Normally I prefer not to speak of this kind of thing, because it just feeds the anti-Muslim stereotype. But, they are all true too. And when people point out stories like this, I start giving just as many examples from my own culture. All you have to do is watch American TV news and get your daily examples.

IMHO, both of our cultures have abyssmal records on their treatment of women. Sexual slavery is equal on both sides. It is natural that most women on each side look at their own culture - warts and all - and choose to think that their way is better than the other. But, I know Western women who have converted to Islam and are happier in that lifestyle. I know Muslim women who have become more secular in their outlook, prefer the Western lifestyle and live in the West. I applaud them all.

There is another factor at work here too. I hope this doesn't upset you Usool... but I have noticed that women often tend to tell men what the men want to hear. Not that I am saying that you are not accurately reporting the attitudes of many, if not most of your female friends and colleagues. Just that they may not tell you all of their thoughts - or they frame them in a way that they know will not upset you. (a skill we women have been working on since Eve) I also get the impression that you are talking about more mature women. Through the years the majority of my female students were young and at the beginning of their college. Most of them had never left their countries. In Oman many of them were village girls who had never met a foreigner or a Christian before. You would likely be shocked at some of the things that they think and often blurt out. And that is what made my teaching experience over there such a joy. To think I got paid all that money and got to learn as much from them as they did from me.

VS