Job Discussion Forums

[englishgibson]

[andrew_gz]

"Now, that is something I have experienced and am a bit scared off myself. The Chinese are seemingly a great group of �copycats� in many industries and that goes for the teaching English and our teaching techniques that we show and they observe �carefully�. Some of the Chinese that are at a higher level of English with some foreign experience (and they'll have more of it in the near future to use it in their classrooms) might as well be able to do their jobs better than some of us.
(and for less money)"

This has pretty much been how things have always been.
There are ABCs and there are competent home grown teachers. (Yes there are!)

Let's back up a sec.

There is a difference between public and private institutions.(and then again sometimes not)

Public institutions can entertain diversity.(with quals)[or not]

Private institutions must serve up(for the most part) a Caucasian with(mind you) the right passport.(with quals)[or not]

By far the thinking here is white skin=English speaker
All others need not apply.

PS
I am rather bored with the legalistic approach on this forum.
Yes, I know THE laws.
It's the grey area that really rules the roost. (at least in my neck of the woods)
I'm not suggesting anyone contravene clearly defined LAWS.
But for anyone of you that think the status quo is going to change any time soon.

Think again!

[englishgibson]

[tofuman]

EG,

I was quoting Roger and agreeing with him.

The local people do need help with the pronounciation. More importantly, they need help in understanding the culture that produced the language.

Right now, I see that certain Chinese people learn the language to make friends with us, gain our trust, and then betray us. FAOs and their underlings are good examples of this sort.

That is a gross abuse of language and violates Western standards of human interaction. For that reason, I question the ethical paradigm of the English language business in China.

My own group of friends contains many people who speak little or no English and don't care much about it. Perhaps the "good" Chinese are the ones who, for the most part, care not for the West or English.

"Oral English" is a waste of my time anyway. There must be better things to do in life.

[englishgibson]

I see.

Good addition with those ethics though.

Cheers and beers

[englishgibson]

[wonderd]

I've been lucky on this one, and haven't had any real problems with my employer. But, I do have some views (of course!) on the topic.

1. Communication breakdown. I have seen it a lot, and it can really freak out the foreign teacher sometimes. Either a mix-up in a word or an expression translated from Chinese that doesn't work in English can cause misunderstanding and sometimes instigate a dispute.

I still remember my girlfriend writing a big letter for her English customers with her company. At the end of it she wanted to say "If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to call me." Instead she wrote, "If you have any questions, please don't call me."

Things like that.

2. Cultural understanding. A lot of times, and not just in China, the business will not understand some points of culture. My company had a situation with a teacher having troubles with the police and they made a public statement to all of the teachers about it. Another time they had a problem with a teacher who (and it was true) was a little crazy and they explained to everyone about this as well. Quite a few of the foreign teachers were of the opinion that it was none of their business and they didn't need to know.

Two things that can happen in China, which makes me feel for some of the businesses that are really trying. Chinese workers (that I have met) work very hard and a lot of time do overtime for no pay. Chinese are more greatful for the work that they have. So sometimes it's hard for a Chinese business to deal with complaints from it's teachers.

If you do feel the company you're working for is legitimately trying to understand you, then be patient and understanding. I've never had a problem with my company, but others have. I think the reason (maybe this is arrogant of me) is that I tend to communicate with them better. I was trained to always provide options and not just to go with a problem. And try to be understanding and respectful to them.

And realize most of all that this is a different culture. There's quite a few things that take some foreigners a long time to understand. Facial expressions for one thing. Professional Chinese tend not to show emotion on their face. Sometimes that is perceived as cold or not caring. It's not. It's just their way.

Bottom line, don't be quick on the draw. Don't over react. Try your best to resolve any situations that you have, and then if it doesn't work out, freak out to your hearts delight!

Wow, just a couple of points, eh?

[Roger]

I don't tire of telling again how relaxed rapport with my FAO is - FOR ME. This has little to do with my career in China that spans several years and includes several employers; patience is a gift you have, or you must develop anywhere in the world.
My FAO also is patient, perhaps more so than most of his peers in this country; he is a professional translator and speaks excellent English. He has met thousands of westerners and Asians over the years of his carrer at our university.
BUt he is a true and genuine Chinese; he understands a good deal about our culturally-induced behavioral patterns. He would drop me a call before raiding my home; he tells me he had to turn off the light in my apartment when I was out.
But what is very Chinese in him is, - well, how to put it? - maybe his dawdling, procrastinating, putting off to next year what he should - and could - do now.
This is a very common feature in Chinese people, and this is where we must adapt the most, I suppose.
FOr instance, you tell my FAO your fridge is broken. He won't take action on it for days, even weeks. In office, you will always hear him say "I am busy", but You can easily see he has time on his hands. Of course, you do not know how much time he has; I do, however, note that he likes to engage in friendly banter and long chats that use a lot of time that is not used for something, ahem: more result-orientated.
So, the other day, one of our more recent arrivals scolded him for not replacing a borken radio; our FAO was somewhat shaken after that incident (she clearly didn't think she should consider her position relative to his as subordinate). Our FAO complained to me about her - but she will never know that.
Incidentally, I also had wanted him to get me a mop for my apartment. In fact, since arriving here I have always had to borrow mops from others. He promised me to purchase a brand-new one - but his last promise was uttered 3 weeks ago.
What's the point of hollering or getting worked up? I can still borrow mops from my neighbours. And preserve peace and friendship.
Today he told me he is going to apply for our new work visas; I know he means business. I said I am going to Hong Kong on urgent business, but I can postpone my trip.
"Not necesssary", he replied, "I will make a separate trip to the PSB to get YOUR visa after you have returned from Hong Kong!"

[hilary]

[quote="Roger"]FOr instance, you tell my FAO your fridge is broken. He won't take action on it for days, even weeks. In office, you will always hear him say "I am busy", but You can easily see he has time on his hands. Of course, you do not know how much time he has; I do, however, note that he likes to engage in friendly banter and long chats that use a lot of time that is not used for something, ahem: more result-orientated.


Oh, Roger, you've been here so long you are almost Chinese! How ON EARTH can one manage without a fridge for more than a couple of hours in Guangdong? He should be fired instantly! Let me come and put a bomb under the lousy slacker. Really, I'd love to.

[englishgibson]

Wow! This forum has been going well.

Wonderd has made some excellent observations that I must reconfirm. Besides the communication problem that has been well known to us, the cultural understanding is a huge one. I�ve worked in a school where the employer worked her Chinese staff so hard and so far beyond their usual scheduled hours. We complained, when we got that �extra� in our schedules just a wee bit over at times, but we were quick to react. I can only imagine how the Chinese staff must�ve felt about our complaints of working too many hours.

Having our privacy invaded at times causes us to confront immediately as for example when the school�s Chinese staff enters our apartment unannounced. Once one of my coworkers (foreign teacher) got an unannounced visit of the school�s cleaner, who just entered to clean her apartment though at the wrong time (the cleaner�d always cleaned her apartment before). That teacher went nuts. Wouldn�t many of us react the same way? However, the Chinese privacy�s understanding is quite different from ours.
The other day my Chinese girlfriend picked up my cell went over my saved numbers and messages, when I caught her. When I confronted her she asked: �Matt do you have any secrets from me?�

Cheers and beers

[tofuman]

"The other day my Chinese girlfriend picked up my cell went over my saved numbers and messages, when I caught her. When I confronted her she asked: �Matt do you have any secrets from me?� "

EG, What do you think? Does SHE have any secrets?

[Roger]

[englishgibson]

Tofuman, I don't believe she does, although Chinese are much better with their facial expressions and maybe showing emotions than we are. It's really hard to see that sometimes on them. So, Chinese's secrets are better kept supposedly. Anyway, that is my opinion. Ohh god ... I hope that she hasn't got another one!

Roger, my girlfriend has not seen that movie.

Cheers and beers

[peabocardigan]

I agree with Roger that we should adapt MORE and put ourselves into Chinese shoes MORE OFTEN. However, the people that want us to come here, who invite us into their society and who want us to spread our 'foreign-ness' also have to understand where we are coming from and that, by default of being from outside we are different people with different customs, expectations and needs. While many of our needs probably seem ridiculous to the Chinese, you can't dismiss our needs entirely.

I can honestly say that my employers do not care about us or where we come from or where our frustrations originate. Most of the time it just seems like we are inconveniencing them by asking questions and wanting things. I always think that my job of teaching 22 hours a week is pretty slack but then I go into the admin-building and see most of the people playing solitaire, smoking and chatting with their co-workers. I would say that at my school the actual amount of work people do amounts to 2 hours tops every day and I am quite sure that this is not exaggerated. I understand the social culture from which this originates but it is frustrating nonetheless, particularly when you need things that are more valuable or important than mops, such as re-imbursements, visas etc...

Understanding works both ways and I agree that waiguoren and Chinese alike have to work on this. It's not a one-way-street though!

[englishgibson]

Peabocardigan, what I am reading between your lines is the �EFFICIENCY� of the Chinese workers as being a problem as well, and that is besides that lack of cultural understanding.
If that�s what it is, I can relate to that. I�ve seen Chinese workers� one day�s work equal to that amount of a half a day�s work of Canadian workers. However, from what I have seen at the schools, either the government or private schools, I cannot say the same thing. The Chinese workers particularly in this field of business get a lot of stuff to deal with (Can you imagine having 3 classes of 50 kids and their exams to correct?).
Contradictive as I am going to sound, I believe that Chinese have a huge problem with their �EFFICIENCY� and it affects us (the foreign English teachers) everywhere we go in China. A part of their problem comes with their often-disorganized working environment, poor management skills and a lack of experience. How fast the Chinese economy has developed, although their thinking has not.

The other day I saw one of my Chinese coworkers on a chat line for two hours and one counting about a thousand leaflets (of the school) and dividing them into five groups, which took her two and a half hours. That�s a tough job, isn�t it? The third girl was also counting, but the sheep. Those girls stay at work for more than ten hours five days a week and come for another �half a day in�.

Chinese employers tend to stretch their employees working hours in order to achieve better results in their companies, though they are getting sleepy and overworked staff.
Now, I might be wrong, but in my opinion that is how Japan�s got into their deep recession recently. Although, the Chinese employers can really enjoy those unbelievably low labor costs. Speaking of labor costs and that has nothing to do with us in this case, but do you think that there will be a minimum wage in China soon?

Cheers and beers