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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Nolefan, thanks for the update on the situation in Hebei Province. It would raise the confidence level, and the usefulness of this collection of information, if more people would do as you have done and let us know how things are going, currently, in the province where they're teaching.
Shonisan, thank you for your contribution to this thread, and thank you for the reference to the labour laws of China. But, the laws you made reference to appear to be of general application to foreigners, who are/will be employed in China. Where they differ from the rules established by the State Administration of Foreign Expert Affairs, it's my opinion that the SAFEA rules will control, in the case of qualified, foreign teachers. The drafters of the general law seem to have had this in mind when they exempted foreign experts, and those under the Administration of Foreign Expert Affairs, from certain requirements of the laws of general application, as in the following excerpt from the general labour laws you referred us to-
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Article 9. Foreigners meeting one of the following qualifications can be exempted from certificates of permission and employment certificates: foreign experts...and foreigners carrying certificates of foreign experts issued by the Administration of Foreign Experts. |
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shonisan
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Volodiya wrote: |
... and thank you for the reference to the labour laws of China. But, the laws you made reference to appear to be of general application to foreigners, who are/will be employed in China. Where they differ from the rules established by the State Administration of Foreign Expert Affairs, it's my opinion that the SAFEA rules will control, in the case of qualified, foreign teachers. The drafters of the general law seem to have had this in mind when they exempted foreign experts, and those under the Administration of Foreign Expert Affairs, from certain requirements of the laws of general application, as in the following excerpt from the general labour laws you referred us to-
* * * * * * *
Article 9. Foreigners meeting one of the following qualifications can be exempted from certificates of permission and employment certificates: foreign experts...and foreigners carrying certificates of foreign experts issued by the Administration of Foreign Experts. |
I think the thing you are missing is that the law is the law and has been since 1996 and it is the interpretation of the law at the provincial level that has created the mass of differing applications.
Each PSB is responsible for the enforcement of the law as they see fit and each province is reading all of their own meanings into those laws.
There are also two documents available, not just from the Bureau of Foreign Experts. I have an Alien Employment Permit which is issued by the Ministry of Labour and can be issued to all employees not teaching at an official 'educational institute'.
I have taught in China for two years with this documentation which also qualified me for my 'Z' visa.
You will find that most of the commercial endeavors teaching English in China are NOT educational institutions unless they are affiliated with a university or school system. This certification is extremely hard to achieve and requires the submission to educational standards.
Most commercial ventures are not educational institutions at all but are registered as consultancies.
Web International for example is registered as a 'Service Industry' and, much to the chagrin of their teaching staff who make plans for extended holidays, suddenly find themselves with 3 day holidays during the national holidays because the management has somehow managed to have them ranked with McDonalds employees on the employment totem.
I think it is important that you begin to differentiate between educational institutions and language schools since they are far from being the same thing.
You will also find out that most of the people here claiming to be working at Colleges with no degree are working for a private company who rents space in the college.
If you check out places like Suzhou (Soochow) University, you will find about a dozen JV 'Schools' like the 'Australian Foundation' which basically uses people to re-teach the last year of High School in English so that the set of students from the previous year who failed to land a University Position due to low marks can bring their language skills up to level 6 so they can apply abroad in Australia. They are lazy kids with rich parents.
This is being done in the heart of the University East Campus and yet holds no academic accreditation whatsoever.
There is much more going on here than meets the eye and the locals have been looking for ways to circumvent the laws as referenced above for almost 10 years now.
The changes in application of those laws are being taken to halt the abuses of the laws as described.
As each provincial PSB addresses the problems in their area with stringent application of the laws to prevent further abuses, you see the lesser qualified people migrating to provinces with more lax restrictions. This causes the lax provinces to tighten up.
It won�t be long before all provinces tighten up. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:33 am Post subject: |
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Shonisan, thanks for the two interesting and informative posts to this thread.
In taking an exception to your post, I wanted to call attention to the fact that the laws you were relying on were not the only laws which affect foreign teachers, in China. In addition, there are the immigration laws, and the rules promulgated by the State Administration for Foreign Expert Affairs.
Shonisan wrote:
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| I think the thing you are missing is that the law is the law and has been since 1996 and it is the interpretation of the law at the provincial level that has created the mass of differing applications. |
No, actually I agree that there don't seem to have been changes in the law as it affects foreign teachers (at least none that I've seen), and that the way the law is administered has changed, in certain respects, since late last year. But, I don't think it's accurate to say it has created a "mass of differing applications". In fact, the applications of the law we've seen on this forum can be categorize into a relatively few, differing approaches, so far.
Shonisan also wrote:
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| Each PSB is responsible for the enforcement of the law as they see fit and each province is reading all of their own meanings into those laws. |
This is clearly too broad. The way these laws are being administered in the case of foreign teachers is not so unpredictable and all over the board as your comment would, possibly, suggest. Instead, there have been a limited number of patterns that we see, and have talked about, on this forum.
You further wrote:
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| There are also two documents available, not just from the Bureau of Foreign Experts. I have an Alien Employment Permit which is issued by the Ministry of Labour and can be issued to all employees not teaching at an official 'educational institute'. |
This practice has been called to our attention, before, on this forum. Other posters have pointed out that, though working as teachers, they were entering the country and being carried on the books in another capacity, just as I think you've suggested. They thought, as you seem to, that this was being done to circumvent the requirements of Chinese Law as it particularly pertains to foreign teachers and the schools which may employ them.
Shonisan also wrote:
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| You will find that most of the commercial endeavors teaching English in China are NOT educational institutions unless they are affiliated with a university or school system. This certification is extremely hard to achieve and requires the submission to educational standards. |
This has been, in the experience of our posters, the most frequent cause of their running afoul of the law, in China; that is, they were employed by organizations that had not obtained permission to hire foreign teachers and the teachers were lacking in documentation to work in China as a probable consequence. |
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shonisan
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| Volodiya wrote: |
| Shonisan, thanks for the two interesting and informative posts to this thread. |
Thanks for your support and interesting responses!!!
| Volodiya wrote: |
| In taking an exception to your post, I wanted to call attention to the fact that the laws you were relying on were not the only laws which affect foreign teachers, in China. In addition, there are the immigration laws, and the rules promulgated by the State Administration for Foreign Expert Affairs. |
| Quote: |
| No, actually I agree that there don't seem to have been changes in the law as it affects foreign teachers (at least none that I've seen), and that the way the law is administered has changed, in certain respects, since late last year. But, I don't think it's accurate to say it has created a "mass of differing applications". In fact, the applications of the law we've seen on this forum can be categorize into a relatively few, differing approaches, so far. |
I am not sure of the problems on the site here. I am too much of a newbie to have reviewed all posts. My girlfriend however is an agent and a representative of Suzhou University hiriing foreigners and arranging their visas.
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This is clearly too broad. The way these laws are being administered in the case of foreign teachers is not so unpredictable and all over the board as your comment would, possibly, suggest. Instead, there have been a limited number of patterns that we see, and have talked about, on this forum. |
Actually, no, it is the law and its interpretation which is broad.
On this site, you hear from a lot of teachers who have made it here to take up residence and teach.
You wouldn't believe just how many who don't actually get here because of the interpretations of the law.
We had rediculous incidents that never even made it into the country.
| Quote: |
| This practice has been called to our attention, before, on this forum. Other posters have pointed out that, though working as teachers, they were entering the country and being carried on the books in another capacity, just as I think you've suggested. They thought, as you seem to, that this was being done to circumvent the requirements of Chinese Law as it particularly pertains to foreign teachers and the schools which may employ them. |
Not really. They have not actually broken the law.
They have just created anothr type of business that does not use teachers but language and culture consultants.
This is perfectly legal since no diploma or degree is supplied.
For example, ClarkMorgan makes its bread and butter from this type of operation. |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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For those who are curious to see what Shonisan is talking about-
http://www.clarkmorgan.com/en/
It's always risky to try to say, in your own words, what somebody else is saying, because it's so easy not to do the other person justice in your summary, but I'll try.
Shonisan seems to me to be saying that there are foreigners who are actually working as teachers, who are fully documented to work in China as foreign workers- just not as foreign teachers. They have been qualified by their employers to work in China in some capacity other than foreign expert-teacher; thus, the requirements normally imposed on the employer and employee by the rules of SAFEA, and the Education Bureaus, do not come into play. He thinks this practice may come under scrutiny, in the near future, in the provinces where it is taking place.
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I have, from time to time, asked for updates to this thread, based on the experiences of our posters. We have reports only from about half of the provinces (see the first post in this thread). If you have something to add, will you please do so, regarding the practices in your province, based on your personal experiences?
The provinces of China, about which we are concerned, here:
Anhui Beijing Chongqing Fujian Gansu Guangdong Guangxi Guizhou Hainan Hebei Heilongjiang Henan Hubei Hunan Inner Mongolia Jiangsu Jiangxi Jilin Liaoning Ningxia Qinghai Shaanxi Shandong Shanghai
Shanxi Sichuan Tianjin Tibet Xinjiang Yunnan Zhejiang |
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Volodiya
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1025
Location: Somewhere, out there
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| Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 7:06 am Post subject: |
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Keath, I know you must be busy, but I may, nevertheless, ask you, from time to time, to tell us the basis upon which you've asserted, on a number of occasions on these forums, recently, that is impossible to get documented to live and work in China, unless you've entered on a Z visa- and that this has been the case, since July, this year .
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On another thread, I asked Keath to offer some further evidence of his claim, as follows:
| Quote: |
| I have, as with others, asked you to provide detailed, factually based reports of your experiences with this issue. To date, you have not done so. Why don't you do that now, tell us about specific cases in which you've been unable to get clients documented in provinces where, before July, it wasn't a problem. |
He declined my invitation to provide us with details, saying he couldn't find my request:
Keath wrote:
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| I just went through a history of your posts and I cannot find anywhere where you or "others" as you claim, have made such a request. |
[See- http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=29772
if you wish to see the full exchange of posts.]
________________________
Keath, this is one difference between what you've written, and what I typically write. I offer the basis of the claims I've made, regarding the law/administrative practice in China as it pertains to the work of FTs. Where it is based on the law, I have cited the law; where it has been based on the report of a poster, I've said who that poster was. I have made an effort to get full, factual details from posters when they've give us some partial information about their experiences with these subjects. It seems that you feel you are above having to explain, in detail, the basis for your conclusions, owing to your work as a recruiter. On the contrary, because you're involved in recruitment, the burden is, as I see it, higher. The reason is the vested interest recruiters have in having FTs to market to employers. Here are two reasons why recruiters would favor the Z visa process (there are, undoubtedly, others). 1) Those who find jobs and get documented in country more often do so without the help of recruiters; and, 2) those who get Z visas before entering the country, through the help of recruiters, are "money in the bank" for the recruiters, because of the pre-approvals which must be obtained from the local governments for issuance of a Z visa.
Your bare faced assertion regarding the current situation in China is nothing more than that, and goes against the experience of our posters, up to the present time. Unlike yourself, I see the country as a patchwork of administrative practices, not subject to a single description, such as you've offered us, recently.
Any assertion regarding the law and administrative processes in China on these forums is subject to close scrutiny by the posters, and should be. You cannot claim an exemption from being asked upon what you are relying in making those statements.
You will, if you look, find nothing I've written to suggest that entering on a Z visa to work is in any way inferior to entering on some other visa. Here is a quote from my first post in this thread-
| Quote: |
| Obtaining a Z visa before you enter China to work is your reasonable assurance that your that your prospective employer has obtained permission to hire foreigners; that you are qualified to teach, under the standards set by Chinese law and, that your employer has obtained permission to hire you. |
There are both advantages, and disadvantages to the Z visa process, as reported by our posters. But, I've rarely attempted to give advice; rather, I've confined myself largely to collecting data regarding the administrative practices, in China, and its published law, as it relates to FTs. As a consequence, I'm interested in following any changes that may occur in the situation. If, as you claim, things have changed since July, this year, it is an interesting assertion, but you've given us precious little on which to rely. If it turns out to be the case, I'll be happy to report that, on these forums. But, I can't responsibly report that, based on a claim of a single poster, when the experience of our posters is to the contrary. |
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sswilson
Joined: 06 Nov 2009
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:20 am Post subject: |
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I have a questions about the requirements for obtaining a Z Visa in China.
I am applying for positions in China with my girlfriend. I hold a Bachelors Degree with Honors in English Literature as well as TESOL certification, however my girlfriend only has TESOL certification with no Degree. I have checked the requirements at the Chinese Embassy Website and according to their information a degree is NOT required.
The problem is that when applying for positions, some employers are saying that the degree IS required for a Z Visa. The issue with them is not that they do not want to hire her, as the job offer is still on the table. They claim that the degree is actually a requirement for the Visa. The owner of the school has even suggested methods of getting around the requirements like providing proof that we are married (which we are not) or having her go to China on an L Visa instead. Other schools have gotten back to us as well and are interested in hiring despite her lack of a degree, however only the one has attempted to begin the process of obtaining the paperwork for us.
I am just worried that even if we are hired by a school (such as the one that has already offered us a job) when we go to get our Visas in order, we will find out that she is not qualified.
Could someone offer some kind of clarification on this? There seems to be a lot of conflicting information on the subject... |
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bluetortilla
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 815
Location: Henan
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:42 am Post subject: |
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I was just recently told by a uni in Chongqing that I would have to return to the US to apply for a Z visa (I'm a US citizen living in Japan). I turned down the job offer, even though the school said they would reimburse me.
Now my visa is being processed by a well-known uni in Guangzhou, and the rep there also asked me if I would be applying for the Z visa in the US. I told her that I had no plans to return to the US, but would prefer to apply for at the Chinese Consulate here in Japan, if possible. I haven't heard back from her yet.
Reading about visa runs, that sounds OK as long as I'm sure everything is square before going to HK.
But what's going on with this requirement in Chongqing to return to your home country, and now possibly the same pressure from Guangzhou as well? I've looked through the forums and can't find anything. |
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Baozi man
Joined: 06 Sep 2011
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: |
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Old thread but interesting question regarding the necessity of a degree. The real issue [here] is not with the PSB, it is with the FAO of the province. They must provide the documents necessary for the Z visa. Their requirements change and may not be consistently enforced.
A two year degree with a TESL/TOEFL was OK for a high school. Then that changed and unis were ok too. Really, you don't know until you try.
Lack of a degree will cost you in salary and general disrespect, even though you may be hired. You may also be fired/ not have your contract renewed if a candidate with a degree comes along.
Once the provincial FAO provides your documents, assuming your school is properly registered, the RP should follow with little problem. |
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