|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 4:25 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| E. Singer wrote: |
| Makes me feel like a second class and unwanted citizen. |
Rather than the first-class Japanese citizen you've always aspired to be? Get over it and grow up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ah, yes. More brilliant advice from the library of pithy retorts of Henry_Cowel -- the purveyor of expert advice on all of Dave's forums from A to Z.
If you truly believe that citizenship is required in order to have equality before the law, then might be shocked to learn that many people (such as the UN High Comissioner on Human Rights) disagree with you.
Get over it nothing! Things will never improve with the complacency you advocate. I suppose that if Dave's (and the Internet) had been around in 1955, you would have told Rosa Parks to "grow up" and "get over it" too. The OP has a legitimate beef -- one that many foreigners in Japan have faced. Perhaps they too should all "grow up" because they don't have a smile on their face for being questioned by the police with no cause.
"Yes, Mr. Kind Police Officer, Sir. Thank you for doing your job so dilligently. Thank you for asking me for my ID card. I feel SO much safer now that you are here. Thank you for putting all my neighbours' minds at ease that I'm not some terrorist/rapist from America who has come to molest your children and steal your bicycles. Please feel free to detain me anytime. I'll be glad to comply. It makes me feel good to help the police whenever I can." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stosskraft
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 252
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wow I guess there is 2 clear sides to this discussion. I must admit I am a little surprised given the subtle topic title.
With my foreigners card there was a little card in English entitled "Notes".
Point # 2. "This certificate shall be carried, in person at all times and be presented to the competent authorities when so requested".
Does this not mean that we are going to get asked for this card once in a while? I understand the original poster was a little worked up and need to vent a little, but posting "I HATE JAPAN" in a Japan teaching forum is just asking to have the boot put to him. I understand that discrimination exist everywhere and realistically we are not going to change it by getting angry (at what I consider a minor episode) and dismissing a whole country for the actions of few. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Big John Stud
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 513
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| E. Singer wrote: |
I understand that bike theft is quite common here, however- NOT ONCE has my bike ever been verified that it belongs to me!!
All they want to find out is where I come from and look at my ID and pass it around for their buddies to look at too.
I live in a residental area of central Tokyo.
Makes me feel like a second class and unwanted citizen. It will get worse when we alll will have the chip in our ID cards. |
Maybe you offended someone! The police in Tokyo has always been so polite and kind to me. They are so much better than the cops in the U.S.
Cops in Tokyo usually solute me when I walk up to them. They have gone out of the way to help me get somewhere. You must of offended someone. Sometimes instead of crying about how someone treat you, maybe you should look at what you have done to them? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bozo Yoroshiku
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 139
Location: the Chocolate Side of the Force
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JimDunlop2 wrote: |
| "Yes, Mr. Kind Police Officer, Sir. Thank you for doing your job so dilligently. Thank you for asking me for my ID card. I feel SO much safer now that you are here. Thank you for putting all my neighbours' minds at ease that I'm not some terrorist/rapist from America who has come to molest your children and steal your bicycles. Please feel free to detain me anytime. I'll be glad to comply. It makes me feel good to help the police whenever I can." |
How smart is it to actually say this to them?
--boz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bozo Yoroshiku
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 139
Location: the Chocolate Side of the Force
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Stosskraft wrote: |
Point # 2. "This certificate shall be carried, in person at all times and be presented to the competent authorities when so requested".[/b]
Does this not mean that we are going to get asked for this card once in a while? |
Yes, but the whole point is they can't demand it "just because"; racial profiling or "because of crime prevention" is "just because". There are laws in place that say they can't do this. That's the issue, not whether or not the OP used hyperbole in the title of the thread.
--boz |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lister100
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 106
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hey Stosskraft,
The "I Hate Japan" title I'm sure was not the true feeling of Singer. I have had the misfortune of being on the hassled side of the police line back in Canada. It shook my faith in the whole society around me. Its a terrible thing to see the human error in law enforcement. Within an instant I could understand the contempt African Americans feel towards the police in places like LA or even Toronto. One moment you're a respectable member of the community and the next you're an animal to be singled out and humiliated.
The situations are different here, but the outrage felt when being unjustly hassled by police can make you lash out at the system around you. Especially if the problem is race related, which in my case it wasn't. I think the title is totally understandable from an emotional point of view after something like this happens. You have to be able to cut others some slack after things like this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| hmmmmmm.........asking them for their meishi.......sounds like a good idea! Do you know if cops carry them? |
Silly goose. They carry little pocketbooks that look like notepads with an official symbol on the cover, and if you ask to see this, they will/SHOULD open it up and show you their picture, name, and other details on the inside cover. Happened to me, and the plainsclothes cop had no qualms in doing that. Why did he stop ME? This is a huge thing that you must consider, racial profiling aside...
I was in my suit and tie going through the major Sapporo train station in the middle of the day, heading to class. I did not look like a slacker, but my white face showed that I was not a Japanese. At that time, there had been lots of overstayers on their visas, especially from Russia up where I live.
I'm not making excuses for the police, but consider a few things before you cry out I HATE JAPAN:
1. There are tons of foreigners overstaying their visas these days. That is a crime. (I don't like it, but since you live in Tokyo, you should be quite well aware of the racial profiling and slurs that come from good old Ishihara himself, including the creation of a web site made to list foreigners names if they are suspected of crimes. The good old UN has only just this week published a new article condemning that one.)
2. Bicycle theft is in the top 2 or 3 most common crimes committed in Japan. Never mind who does it. Just accept the fact that such theft happens, and you have another excuse to stop you. (In my mind that was not a VALID excuse, and you have the right to question it, as Arudou's web site advice points out.)
3. If this incident really, truly, honestly makes you HATE JAPAN, perhaps you should consider your life here. I think you've lived in Japan for about 4 years, right? Is THIS the only thing that has really ticked you off about life here, so strongly that you have to write that you HATE JAPAN??? Why not write I HATE THE JAPANESE POLICE? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pnksweater
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 173
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Big John Stud wrote: |
Maybe you offended someone! The police in Tokyo has always been so polite and kind to me. They are so much better than the cops in the U.S.
Cops in Tokyo usually solute me when I walk up to them. They have gone out of the way to help me get somewhere. You must of offended someone. Sometimes instead of crying about how someone treat you, maybe you should look at what you have done to them? |
Yes, it was terribly offensive when I went to the police box and asked them for directions. Really... it is absurd that asking for directions would be cause for a valid (crime preventing) ID check.
See if you feel that they're simply preventing crime the next time your husband spends the night handcuffed in a police box, no phone call, nothing. I certainly feel like a second class citizen when this BS happens. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
E. Singer
Joined: 12 Apr 2005
Posts: 17
Location: Somewhere nice
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
I HATE THE JAPANESE POLICE!!
Only an absolute idiot would ride a bike if they were an overstayer! Maybe I have been here too long.........Japanese mentalities, narrow mindedness..................I realize this may exist in all countries- I have just never encountered it in such large doses. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| E. Singer wrote: |
Only an absolute idiot would ride a bike if they were an overstayer! |
Perhaps. But I've known several overstayers who WERE arrested, detained and deported.... Ironically enough, that's how they got caught.
I agree though... It IS dumb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JimDunlop2
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Stosskraft wrote: |
With my foreigners card there was a little card in English entitled "Notes".
Point # 2. "This certificate shall be carried, in person at all times and be presented to the competent authorities when so requested".
Does this not mean that we are going to get asked for this card once in a while? |
Okay, now we're back to well thought-out, lucid arguments.  I'll bite.
Let's discuss what constitutes "competent authorities."
The following info is copy/pasted directly from Debito Arudo's website: www.debito.org Bold=mine.
-----------------------
WHAT TO DO IF...
...you are asked for your "Gaijin Card".
(the gaikokujin touroku shoumeisho, the wallet-sized card you get from the local Ward Office when you initially register in Japan):
It depends who's asking. Legally, nobody can ask for it unless they have been endowed with police powers by the Ministry of Justice. Yes, that means hotels, video store clerks, sports clubs, and JR platform attendants legally cannot demand it as a condition for providing service.
Of course, many situations need ID when customer accountability is a must--like, say, before renting out equipment. If you have another form of ID (such as a Japanese driver licence), show it instead. Basically, you should request to show the same form of ID being demanded from regular Japanese customers.
If you have no other form of ID and you're willing to show the Gaijin Card--go right ahead. That's your prerogative (that is, if you don't mind it being photocopied and all that). But if you do have suitable ID which should suffice, there is no reason for you to have to show the Gaijin Card in addition. The business's reason for asking for it may surprise you--some places, such as sports clubs and hotels, claim that the police have asked them specially to be on the lookout for visa overstayers or terrorists. However, this de facto deputizing of the general public for Gaijin Card Checks is illegal and you are under no obligation whatsoever to cooperate with it.
Letter of the law on who can ask for the Gaijin Card:
http:// www.debito.org/residentspage.html#checkpoints
Japan Times article on this (July 27, 2004):
http://www.debito.org/ japantimes072704.html
More on this from Olaf Karthaus (Report, January 19, 2005) at
http://www.debito.org/olafongaijincarding.html
By the way, carry the Gaijin Card on your person at all times. If you're caught without it, it is a criminal offense in Japan, meaning you can be arrested.
-----------------
Next, let's discuss under what circumstances it should be justified to stop someone and ask them for aforementioned ID:
Again, from Debito Arudo's website:
------------
The Police Execution of Duties Law (Keisatsukan Shokumu Shikkou Hou--in kanji 警察官職務執行法), Section 2, says
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"A police officer is able to ask for a person's ID, but only if based on a reasonable (gouriteki) judgment of a situation where the policeman sees some strange conduct and some crime is being committed, or else he has enough reason to suspect that a person will commit or has committed a crime, or else it has been acknowledged that a particular person knows a crime will be committed. In these cases a police officer may stop a person for questioning."
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Meaning that there must be a *specific crime* or *suspicion of a crime* before questioning can occur. Just being a foreigner is not enough, and without a good reason (soutou na riyuu) a policeman's arbitrary questions to a stranger are against the law.
Of course, as a journalist friend of mine nnotes (who wrote an important article for the Daily Yomiuri on something related to this; it was suppressed in later editions by Yomiuri editors), technically speaking if you are riding a bicycle, a policeman can stop you on the suspicion that you may have stolen it.
From: http://www.debito.org/instantcheckpoints2.html
-----------------------------
I hope that helps clarify a few points. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
