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scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

He is a follower of one of the smaller sects of Islam. And like most converts, he is "more catholic than the Pope."

Albulbul · Joined: 08 Feb 2003 Posts: 364

If "Bedouin" were to look even in passing at what happens in Saudi schools - from Grade 1 to Grade 12 he would find that a truly astonishing amount of time is devoted to religion. It could be argued that becasue so much time is devoted to religion, Koranic recitation and the Hadith, that there is no time for anything else. As a result when saudi boys graduate from secondary schools they have no marketable skills - unless they want to become Imams or religious scholars.

I detect a recent arrival to Saudi Arabia, and one who has not yet attuned to the reality of everyday life here.

M@tt · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 473 Location: here and there

interesting thread. i thought i'd add my two cents to the subtopic of "70% of the curriculum". i used to be the admissions counselor for all incoming international freshmen to a big US university. counselor isn't an accurate title--i was basically the decisions committe and had to review hundreds and hundreds of high school applicants from foregin countries. admittedly, there weren't that many from the gulf, but i can safely say i saw over 50 high school transcripts from different schools in gulf countries, including probably a dozen from KSA. english didn't make up even 25% of the curriculum at any of these schools, or any school in the arab world, or any school in the world, for that matter.

secondly, it seems to me that most muslim arabs hold their language in much higher reverance (seeing it as God's language) than anyone else i've met, and for that reason might see english (or any foreign language) as an indirect threat to islam.

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

Has our bedu friend decided to post no more becasue the ungodly have upset him ? Perhaps he has retired into his muslim ghetto.

shadowfax · Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:59 am Post subject: Re: bedu

A · Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 7

As both an English teacher and a Muslim, I would first like to say that English is entirely compatible with Islam as Islam is a religion which demands that its followers be aware of world events, interact with people of different cultures and invite others to Islam. As a religion for all times and people (not just for Arabs in the desert 1400 years ago), Islam recognizes the importance of using all means of modern technology for the benefit of the Muslim community. So, if English is the language of science, communications, technology and business, then it is obvious that English is a very important factor in the education of any Muslim.

Now, how do you do integrate English into a Muslim society without introducing aspects of Western culture which are not compatible with Islam? In my view, this should have been the original question as it is not English which is the problem (it's just a tool of communication), but some of the other things which may accompany English on its journey into the Muslim classroom.

Here in Jordan, the government schools use a very nice set of textbooks (PETRA and AMRA) which are written with the Jordanian student in mind. Although PETRA was developed by Longman (the British company famous all over the world for its English-language textbooks), all material is culturally relevant to Muslims living in Jordan. The students read stories about important people in their own society, such as the Bedouin, famous Muslim scientists, Jordanian soccer players and TV personalities, famous people in Arab history, etc. There is also a great deal of material related to historical sites, the structure of the government in Jordan and general information having to do with science and current events. There are also articles and stories from Western world, but these articles are things which would not offend anyone.

For example, there is an article about body language in one of the textbooks. It explains "personal space" and encourages students to think about whether this concept has the same definition in all societies. It also gives some examples of everyday body language, but does not go as far as to mention the body language used between members of the opposite sex. There are articles about famous Westerners like Thomas Edison, but we do not find articles about singers (even Arab ones) or other things which would be at odds with Islamic values.

Another series of books (Better English Now - published in Saudi Arabia) is used in private schools and emphasizes Islamic values. For example, the women and girls are shown wearing Islamic dress. This is also true in the PETRA series. At the same time, these books also show women in various roles, such as policewoman, politician, journalist, etc.

Some private schools, on the other hand, use textbooks which are not produced especially for the Muslim countries. In these books, there are stories and articles about music, dating, horoscopes, fighting with one's parents...going out with friends of the opposite sex....you name it. Women and girls often wear shorts and mini-skirts in the pictures. Jordan is a very moderate country, but even moderate people are conservative by Western standards, and I really believe books such as PETRA and AMRA suit the needs of an Islamic society more than the other books which I have just described.

As a Muslim myself, I do try to incorporate elements of Islam into my classroom. For example, the room is decorated with some religious sayings translated into English. I do, at times, explain to students why it is important for a Muslim to learn English, just in case anyone has doubts about its value. In fact, I have never thought of my classroom as at odds with my Islamic values, simply because Islam is real life, and English is part of real life. With regards to Sohail's concerns - about English taking away time from religious instruction - then I would say that the problem comes from people who treat Islam as a separate subject from English. With some creative planning and the right textbooks, I am sure this doesn't need to happen. In fact, English classes which emphasize and respect Islamic values could help our young Muslims be better prepared to discuss Islam with the rest of the world.

johnslat · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:04 am Post subject: Islam in English

Dear A,
Your reply seem to me to be a very well-thought out, considered and judicious one. I suspect, though, that Sohail might want the content of the courses to be considerably more " pro-active " in stressing Islamic values, becoming, in effect, religious courses on Islam taught in English. If so ( and I could be mistaken here ) then only Moslems would be able to teach English in Islamic countries, it seems to me.
Regards,
John

Cleopatra · Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 10:23 am Post subject:

I've come to this post very late but can't resist adding to it, because it's a subject close to my heart.
Here in KSA, English is not emphasised at school level - there were plans to introuduce it at primary school level but they have been shelved, for unspecified reasons. However, as regards universities and other third level instituitions, there is an obsession with English! For example, I work in a hospital and all of our students have to do all of their training through English, even though in many cases, their teachers and future colleagues are Arabs. My students have often told me that the subject matter of what they study isn't particularly difficult in itself, but that the fact that it's all through English makes it so.
If you ask me, it's unrealistic to force everyone to study through a foreign language which is sometiems of no great relevance to their work. AS an earlier poster said, other countries - with far fewer speakers of their language than Arabic - manage to make their way in the world without using English as the only language of instruction. I'm not saying people shouldn't learn English - of course they should - but not at the expense of their own language.
And of course English will edge out Arabic - it is already doing so, not only in the Gulf, but throughout the Arab world. I'm not saying that Arabs won't continue to speak Arabic among themselves - although I'm often amazed to hear Saudis speak English together: showing off, perhaps? - but no research or training will be done in it. Therefore, the language will stagnate and no longer develop - perhaps it will just be used for religious purposes. That would be a tragedy.
As for textbooks, I too, have often thought abour how irrelevant most of them are to Saudi culture. Pictures of girls letting it all hang out, or drinking beer with their boyfriends. However, I think many Saudis are more tolerant than we give them credit for, and I'm often surprised at how little they seem to be offended by it all.

shadowfax · Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:08 pm Post subject:

retract: yes, it's all a waste of time

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

I must agree with Cleopatra; the teaching of English is dysfunctional. What on earth do common footsoldiers and sailors need to know English for? And how skewed a system is it that they get the best teachers because the salaries are high, and the Teacher Training Colleges get the teachers who will accept the lowest salaries in the Kingdom.

I can understand KFUPM using English, and even JIC or YIC, but lower down the chain the training should be in Arabic

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

The likes of Boeing and McDonell-Douglas are not going to start producing their manuals in Arabic. If you are going to do that kind of work you need and will continue to need English. But for non-technical jobs........?

I agree with Stephen.

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

It's a lot cheaper to translate the manuals than to train the technicians in English. It's all to do with offset, and nothing to do with necessity or efficiency.

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

Stephen

Could you explain that bit about "offset" ?

I fear doughnut deficiency has set in. I know I SHOULD understand what you are saying but the head won't go around it.

The reality is that Boeing and all those other technos will NOT translate their manuals. But the reality is that there are hardly any saudi mechanics anyway. the work is done by a handful of Brits and Yanks, with an army of Filipinos. The Saudis come in late and goof off early.

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

offset is ?Yamaha? program. The one Mark Thatcher is supposed to have got big kickbacks from. That says the Saudis will spend this much money on defense contracts with the Brits and Yanks

Cleopatra · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:51 am Post subject:

I've met Arab instructors who say they can't teach their subject through Arabic, because they themselves have been trained in English. That says it all for me, and proves my point about how English is in fact edging out Arabic. As I've said, the language will continue to stagnate because its own speakers do not consider it worthy as a language of study and research.

And why shouldn't those big international companies agree to having their manuals translated into Arabic? Do they also refuse to translate them into other languages? Again, to repeat, I have lived in several countries with far fewer native speakers of their language than Arbic - which has over 200 million speakers - and they are not obsessed with English to the degree that Arabs are.

I honestly think a degree of inferiority complex is at work